Genuine question for anti-vaxxers

We’ve agreed beforehand that they would have some vaccines but not all. We’d agree to those that are well established and used for 10+ years. I followed this agreement during our babies’ first year, but since then he voiced that he’s not happy for him to have the MMR vaccine. I took my child to be vaccinated against MMR nonetheless and behind his back (I accept that this might be morally wrong and that it is his child as much as it is mine).

I don’t think that polio particularly cares whether your immune system is good or bad. It’s very contagious transmitted via water droplets from mouth/throat or via fecal matter.
The last known case in the UK was in the 80s.
It has been detected in London sewage treatment plants where they constantly test for water borne and fecaly transmitted diseases. Since drinking water is taken from the same source it would be prudent to vaccinate for polio if you live there or in any area where drinking water is extracted from a source where sewage is likely to be discharged.

It’s also worth remembering that asymptomatic carriers of some diseases exist and often are the source of unexpected outbreaks. Covid is a classic example, I had a number of colleagues in healthcare who tested positive for covid antibodies during the first lockdown ( our area investigated the prevalence of the infection in healthcare workers early on), they were unaware of having symptoms but may well have inadvertently spreading Covid. I frequently pass on colds to my DH without having any symptoms other than a mild dry throat or a slight headache. He doesn’t go out much due to having had a stroke so there is no other possible vector. Frequent short lived exposure to lots of antigens makes our immune systems superhuman. Childcare workers are similar. During my first few years of work I had every cold going but then gradually my immune system toughened up and is pretty invincible.
I’ve had covid every year since the pandemic but is never more than a headache or a sniffle. I think I have it at the moment but the only symptom is an upset stomach. DS came home from uni on Friday so stands a chance he’s brought it back. I can’t be bothered to test and since I’m on leave for the week I don’t pose a risk.

There are lots of qualified doctors who are anti vaccine. Do you think that appearing on tiktok can change their qualification or education status?

I think part of the problem is the black and white thinking and the refusal to discuss/listen by many who advocate for vaccine uptake plus the exaggeration wrt impact of some of the diseases by vaccine zealots.

Vaccines can cause harm, as can the diseases vaccinated against. It is important to do a risk benefit analysis when deciding whether to get vaccinated. For example, I never got the flu vaccine until last year as I was at low risk and it's not terribly effective. I am now getting the flu vaccine as I'm on immuno-suppressants for an auto-immune disease triggered by covid. I have a friend who has an auto-immune disease triggered by the covid vaccine so she is reluctant to take any more vaccines. When swine flu was a thing, I didn't get the vaccine as I felt it was rushed and I was not at high risk of harm. People I know rushed out to get it because they believed the "vaccines are good" narrative and one of them now has a long term illness triggered by the vaccine.

I didn't have the MMR as it wasn't around at the time. I, and most of the children around me, had measles. It was crap but nobody I know had any severe after effects. Well nourished and healthy children are unlikely to suffer severe aftereffects from the measles so the narrative promoted by some that children were dropping dead all round the place is nonsense. Yes, in previous generations when children were malnourished and less healthy, severe impacts were more likely.

I did not have my eldest dc vaccinated until there was a local outbreak of measles. He was 4. He hadn't been vaccinated because he was born around the time Wakefield's "research" was published in one of the most reputable medical journals and I, like many others, was not willing to take the chance.

Generally, I am pro taking a considered approach to vaccines. I believe herd immunity is important but that the individual, in conjunction with their medical advisors, needs to take a considered approach as to whether it is the right course of action for them. Neither approach, taking vaccines/not taking vaccines is risk free and I think it's important to recognise that and help people to make the right decision.

Your example is just one among many, as is those who I know who insist their child’s injuries post-vaccine were more longlasting.

But why am I going to say ‘okay I'll put my child at this risk’ for jabs, more than I'm going to say ‘okay I'll put my child at this risk’ when it's those saying ‘my child died from measles’

Well, firstly that second group don’t seem to exist.

My child is never going to be at risk of a vaccine injury. My children is at very minimal risk from complications from measles. By the time she is 10 she'll be at even lower risk from things like meningitis. Etc etc and so on and so forth. I have a teenager who never got sick and had no routine illness, yet was not vaccinated.

My children's health is my priority. They seem healthier and more resilient than their vaccinated peers, and that's the data I go on.

Can you provide links to these highly qualified people who are anti vax, assuming they are peer reviewed and published and not TikTok

I was on a covid ward in 2021. I was vaccinated but have a weak immune system. I was very ill. On my ward the other four very poorly patients were all unvaccinated. How do I know? The privacy of hospital curtains, it was the first question asked by every doctor. The young woman (about 35) next to me had been in a month and was deteriorating. They took her off to ICU one night to be ventilated and I never saw her again. I hope she recovered.

I wish the HPV jab had been around when I was a kid. Cervical cancer rates are falling off a cliff.

If more people do the same are you not genuinely concerned that diseases considered widely eradicated will make a comeback? My concern is that this effects everyone, when diseases circulate widely again then they mutate and vaccinated people will not be safe from them either. We would potentially be looking at decades of impact again.

My DD ended up in hospital after her 8week jabs. Don't know which one caused it. She was admitted for 2 nights and still unwell for a good week at home. There's no denying it was a direct result of the vaccines.

But, in the grand scheme of things, 2 nights in hospital and a week of Calpol and cuddles is nothing. A million times better than actually contracting one of the diseases she is now protected against.

I was cautious with the 12 week and 16 week jabs. Had a phone consult before hand (pre-covid when phone appointments were rare). And I had a hospital go-bag with me in case, but she was fine with those. Had my younger children vaccinated too and all was fine.

The only coherent reason for not vaccinating imo is from medical advice (allergy/immune condition etc) which is the reason we need herd immunity.

It's people like you that infuriate me.

"I did my research" - and your research, as (presumably) not a medical professional, is better than decades of medicine etc. how exactly? I assume you mean you've read and digested absolutely everything, from sources that both support and refute your starting position (which you admit to be an anti-vax) and drawing up some sort of robust statistical analysis that comes to the conclusion that even if your kids gets, I dunno, measles - they're unlikely to die from it?

I'm sure this will be deleted as a personal attack. It's not. I feel this way about every anti-vaxxer. You think you're cleverer and more special than people who've dedicated their lives to trying to eradicate preventable diseases.

Thanks for this. I am considering vaccination. My 14 year old is not eligible for any kind of catch up regimen. My 4 year old may be, but I still cannot bring myself to go and get them jabbed when they seem so much healthier than their peers.

I want to though. I really, really do.

I was a child in the 1960s when I got measles, just before the vaccine was rolled out. I'd say we had sanitation and good nutrition (probably better than many children today). Measles still had me very ill for weeks and left me partially deaf.

So they were vaccinated as per the schedule aside from this one illness?

What was the illness?

Do you have children? If so I'm curious how you have dealt with vaccines for them between the two of you?

My husband is similar, his mother was anti-vax (however she did get him at least 1 vaccine - oral polio vaccine). He does hold the view of he hates the idea of giving our children a vaccine and them having a serious adverse side effect from it, the feeling that he would have caused that when if they hadn't been vaccinated they might never have got that illness in the first place. I do kind of understand that view/feeling.

I was raised pro-vax but admit I have become more vaccine hesitant, if vaccines were truly 100% safe and effective I would have no issues with them, but unfortunately they are not, there is always a risk (however small) that there can be a serious adverse reaction, and that makes me worry when it comes to getting them for our children. However, I am also worried about them getting the actual illnesses and suffering through those and potential serious injuries or even death from them.

So, in the end we are kind of meeting each other in the middle, my husband is more anti-live-vax now (so MMR, chicken pox etc for example), I am more hesitant than I might have been with a pro-vax partner. Our children are now mostly vaccinated but we did split the vaccines up and delay some of them, we have refused a couple (e.g. rotovirus) and are still debating with MMR which is the last big vaccine they have not yet had (eldest is going to be offered it in November at school and we are tentatively leaning towards accepting 1 dose then and calling it done as there is very little difference in efficacy between 1 and 2 doses and 1 is much much better than none). Youngest is 1 booster dose away from completing catching up with 4in1 polio, pertussis etc which he will be offered next year. Both children had chicken pox naturally last year so that is no longer a concern for us.

We live in a country with high vaccine uptake and so there has not been a case of Measles in our area for I think 5 years now, I do worry about travelling and visiting England with them having no Measles protection.

I have friends who have similar aged children who have decided not to have any vaccines for them, I think being anti-vax is quite normal in the area we grew up in now. My husbands family is all very anti-vax though some did have covid vaccines due to wanting to protect vulnerable family members. One of my friends holds the same mentality of not wanting to give her chid a vaccine at the
risk of 'causing' them to get hurt by the vaccine, it does seem to be quite a common feeling/reasoning.

I think we have to stop gaslighting parents and saying there’s no risk, your child will be fine etc

Nobody will ever know this for sure, I think anytime someone shares their concern they are shot down, called stupid and uneducated.

Let parents share their concerns! Have a rational conversation.

When I gave my children their 1st vaccinations I was scared and anxious and felt like I had done the wrong thing for a long time. I have met a few people who have been damaged by vaccines, I believe them. I also personally know someone who died the next day of a blood clot after taking the COVID vaccine.

Not everyone has confidence in vaccines and personally I can see why. It’s a massive decision for parents to make.

I don’t know what the alternative is OP, however I am against forcing parents into vaccines- which I know is the case for different parts of the world.

To your first point, what does it matter? If my children are safe because the disease prevalence is low, then they're still safe. I get that I'm being selfish, I don’t dispute that. But are my children less safe?

Your second point is really interesting. So if we did stop vaccinating would polio become more prevalent and then my children’s risk of paralysis from it become higher?

Yes I suppose is the answer. But then what data do we have on children in the developed world in good nutrition suffering the severe complications? Is there any? If there were then why do vaccine campaigns focus on historical global data?

It's not my child’s perceived risk of catching the disease. It's their perceived risk of severe complications from the disease.

Isnt that the guy who thinks autism is caused by gluten?

@GreggWallacesTrousers

Death is a vaccine side effect.

A medical practice has accepted that a 26-year-old man who died within two weeks of taking AstraZeneca's Covid-19 vaccine was not told the correct risk.
Jack Hurn, from Redditch, developed blood clots on the brain in June 2021 after he got the jab at the Revival Fires Clinic in Dudley.

BBC

The parents of a young woman who died after being given an AstraZeneca Covid jab have accused the NHS of failing to pass on known safety warnings about the vaccine.
Marina Waldron, 21, visited hospital with excruciating headaches three times in the week before her fatal collapse from a brain haemorrhage in March 2021.
Max and Liz Waldron said that despite her deteriorating condition, A&E doctors had seemed unaware of the emerging side-effects associated with the jab and warnings that had been issued.

The death of a psychologist after his Oxford-AstraZeneca Covid-19 jab was due to "unintended complications of the vaccine", an inquest has ruled.
Stephen Wright, an NHS employee in south-east London, died 10 days after his first dose in January 2021, senior coroner Andrew Harris found.
Dr Wright, 32, suffered a blood clot to the brain after receiving the vaccine.

What the mortality rate doesn’t tell you is the serious complications that are caused by some illness. Encephalitis can occur with measles, which can cause permanent damage. It can lead to blindness, permanent lung damage and immune amnesia, wiping out previously anquired immune response, so leaving you open to infections you’ve previously been immune to.

It’s a virus so not treatable with antibiotics and because of a long period of successful vaccination programmes there has been no investment in alternative treatments. It’s basically treated with antipyretics.

Mortality rate as a population isn’t high but for an individual family it is devastating. In addition we are no longer equipped to nurse the disease at home so the pressure on the health service could be catastrophic.

Polio is another “old” disease that people dismiss. The last epidemic was horrendous. My aunts father lost the use of his leg muscles and spent the rest of his life in a wheel chair, my DH’s uncle lost the use of one leg. But this generation has pretty much disappeared so the damage is no longer visible.Again it’s viral so treatment is limited. It’s also a lottery as to how it will affect you. My aunts DF was on a ward with many in iron lungs to breath for them but often walked out of hospital, my aunts DF had a relatively mild infection but never walked again.

I have an ex who is permanently deaf as a result of getting measles when he was young. He grew up in Oxford and his parents were anti vax. He has so much anger towards them now.

I know a few extreme anti vaxxers and I can’t get my head around their thinking, but I will say that if I cherry pick, some of what they say makes sense. I absolutely vaccinated my kids when they were little, but one child was subsequently hospitalised after his MMRV - the Drs told us it wasn’t related but I’m certain it was a bad reaction. I’d still encourage parents to vaccinate though. And he was fine, despite the reaction. My second child was diagnosed with Coeliac when he was small and I didn’t even consider it was a vaccine that triggered it, because after genetic testing we found the gene in both children but only one has active Coeliac, the other may never have it. I have been told by this parent that a vaccine triggered it, but I’ll never know, and I would take Coeliac over measles, diphtheria and whooping cough any day! But I do understand the arguments on some level, and I know that vaccines aren’t 100% safe. It’s a case of making a decision that makes sense to you as a parent.
I’ll add that I’m interested to know what one of these staunch anti-vaxxers would do if their child had an accident and needed a tetanus or rabies jab.. would they do it? That’s something I’d be interested to find out.

They were unvaccinated for the conditions that killed them, yes. I’ve also had a significant number of adults in high dependency beds (costing tax payers thousands per day) suffering from the consequences of not being vaccinated. Of those, two patients died that I am aware of. These are not things people tend to put in the Daily Mail due to patient privacy. There are no guarantees in life but death is usually considered a worse outcome than vaccine-related side effects.

This is what my dad believed and I wasn’t vaccinated as a child. He thought that the side effects of vaccinations were worse than catching the disease. Also that one’s own good immunity could ward off illnesses.

Unfortunately he passed away in his 50s when I was still a teen - he contracted mumps (cf. no vax) which must’ve weakened his dodgy heart and he had a fatal heart attack.

My DCs had all their vaccinations and I’m pretty much vaccinated now (except for mumps ironically - had measles as a child and had Rubella vax after having DD - was not immune). I also had whooping cough which was awful - just after the vaccine came in to being.

So yes, I do agree with vaccination but I’m not so naive to think some people are susceptible to being harmed by them.

You haven't answered any of the questions though.

What ingredients were you concerned about in which vaccines and why?

Do you also research the ingredients of antibiotics, painkillers, any medical treatment - or is it just vaccines? Would you/do you refuse antibiotics for your child when they're recommended?