Genuine question for anti-vaxxers

Sorry to hear about your deafness as a result of measles. You were very unfortunate. I assume that was late 60's/early 70's? I got the measles in the early 70's as did most of the neighbouring kids. None of us had long term effects. I think by them, while certainly not unheard of, long term damage was more unusual.

My ds got what was euphemistically referred to as mini measles from the MMR. He was dreadfully ill but the difference between that and measles was, apparently, there was no threat of any of the permanent impacts from actual measles.

Re beef - I live in Ireland so my dc got Irish beef but no way were they getting any beef that was in any way processed or could have potentially come from the UK. I think you were being very sensible with that.

Re the auto immune diseases - mine was also triggered by a very, very mild dose of a virus. If it can be triggered by a virus, it makes sense that it can also be triggered by a vaccine as both put a load on the immune system.

Basically, life is a series of risks and we just need to make the best decisions we can with the best information we can find. Unfortunately unbiased information can be hard to find.

One factor in vaccine scepticism is, as pp have said, the information which government health authorities give about vaccine campaigns and public health in general.

The aim of health campaigns is to get a population-wide response, especially with something like vaccination, because the risk to public health lessens the closer you get to a critical mass uptake.

The persuasive publicity used - as we saw in the pandemic - aims to give individuals powerful reasons to do something for the common good regardless of the extent they benefit as individuals. If authorities get it wrong, they will suffer mistrust.

And it's the case that public health information, especially in a crisis, often has the corners knocked off, it's not a complete, nuanced discussion of every issue, or the ins-and-outs of every scientific opinion. It can't be, because too many people wouldn't pay attention to the campaign, recognise the core information, or be able to take action. It's a balancing act.

PP have listed lots of contributory factors to general mistrust, even before the pandemic, such as individualisation and a growing Western sense that democratic authorities are not on the side of ordinary people. In parallel, social media provides a thousand outlets for alternative, anti-authority information, including mistrust of scientific information.

And when trust on 'the science' of one subject is lowered, it affects other areas in which scientists and campaigners are trying to engage the public, such as with climate change, green taxes, lowering emissions etc.

Which is why it's such a shame that academics, politicians, communicators and medics have been loudly telling the public, with a straight face, that humans can change sex and that sex is on a 'complicated' spectrum and that children can be born into the wrong body, while bio-scientists carefully examined their fingernails.

In the area I live in, people have become generally sceptical about government information campaigns and are becoming more inclined to 'make their own minds up' about risks.

See, this is the problem... people offer a legitimate example of why they might reject a particular vaccine... and they're immediately met with 'sassy' comments like this. How does this help anyone?

Regardless of what her concerns are, she's concerned. The End!

If you’re choosing not to vaccinate your children you’re contributing to the return of infectious diseases in this country and putting those who cannot be vaccinated at risk. End of.

There is not much point trying to get your head around the logic of antivaxxers because much of it is not based on logic, it is based on fear. The majority of vaccine-hesitant parents, and many people re-sharing antivax info believe that what they are hearing is true, or find it plausible enough to worry about the safety/efficacy of vaccines, but the major proponents/original sources of these myths are not acting in good faith. They are knowingly spreading misinformation, usually with the goal of turning people away from mainstream medicine/science because they want to turn them towards alternative health treatments instead, or sometimes there is a political motivation as well as we are seeing in the US.

Essentially nobody likes taking their baby/toddler to get jabbed, because it hurts them - it's horrible. That's the case whether you fully support vaccination or not.

That means though that it's a particularly easy way to tip some people from "Ugh hate this but it's necessary" into "What if I didn't have to do it?" and then to "But what if this vaccine could REALLY hurt my child?"

Plus of course, you can't tell by looking at someone if they are immune to a disease or not. So it's not as difficult to seed the idea that maybe it's all just a con and it's not doing anything.

It wouldn't work nearly as well if it was something like antibiotics or casting a broken bone - you can see the effects of those medical procedures working, and most people would find it extremely difficult to deny their ill or injured child medical treatment which would make them better. (I know antibiotic refusal is also a thing - but tends to be a bit deeper down the rabbithole whereas vaccines are more of a gateway fear.)

General anxiety and other mental health issues involving anxiety, or mistrust in medicine/governments/authority in general (often due to multiple instances of being let down, unheard, or minimised by these groups) leaves people more vulnerable to the claims antivaxxers make. It's not about intelligence or wanting to be contrary. If you want to reduce the reach of antivaccine rhetoric, the most effective thing would be to look into why people lose trust in medicine or government and truly look into how to address those issues, not how to trick or persuade people into vaccinating - but actually how to include, serve, and listen to and reach all groups who currently don't feel that medicine/governments have their best interests at heart, as well as better funding for mental health care to help when people are suffering from anxiety-related conditions leaving them less vulnerable to predatory misinformation.

I'm afraid I can't find which exact one it is any more, but the most interesting thing I ever listened to was an interview with Lydia Greene, who did a U-Turn from being a prominent antivax activist to now speaking out on behalf of parents who are unsure about vaccinating and reassuring them about why vaccines are safe and pointing out the holes in antivax arguments. She is fairly easy to find online so you could listen to any podcast interview with her where she may tell part of the same story.

I am very pro vaccine.
I have a child with a chronic illness who has been on off label prescriptions and involved in drug trials for 20 years.
His life expectancy has tripled since he was born because of my pro pharma attitude.
I do think alot of people don't vaccinated because they can rely on the herd immunity created by those who do vaccinate.
I do think it is really selfish as I have had to make hard decisions weigh up real life risks to extend my child's life. It's just not fair.
During COVID I was very aware if my child got COVID and was severely ill he wouldn't be ventilated as the likelihood of him recovering would be slim so better to give a healthy fit person his spot.
That's my reality so I can't talk about vaccines in real life because anti-vaxers have the privilege of a choice I didn't have as a parent.
I just had to keep him alive by any means.

Worldwide millions died either with or from Covid. An incredibly small number unfortunately suffered vaccine injuries. My friend died from Covid (it triggered a massive heart attack) - unfortunately he didn’t get the chance to have the vaccine as he died a couple of weeks before the vaccine rollout.

The Covid vaccine lessens the symptoms and hopefully keeps you out of hospital. The latest variant seems to be particularly unpleasant although limited numbers of severe cases.

Chicken pox can be mild but very easily spread and can have horrible side effects.

Me - I’d rather a vaccine developed by virologists, experts in their field rather than risk a severe case of the virus

So what made you reach the decision? The ingredients?

That particular user isn't answering any of the legitimate questions put to her - she said she was concerned about some of the ingredients but won't say what those ingredients are. How is asking her to actually lay out her concerns 'sassy?'

I know a TB nurse who has TB as a result of her job. She has no symptoms and has regular checks but has been advised to wait until she retires because after 6 months of antibiotics she will likely pick it up as soon as she returns to work. She tells all her friends who work in healthcare to get tested when they retire to check they haven’t picked it up. She is obviously high risk because every patient has TB but we really have no idea what the current level of infection is because in healthy people it often lies dormant for years or is very low grade.

I think this is the crux of it. I think there used to be more of a collective consideration of doing it for others as well as yourself. I also think people don’t remember what it was like to see the impacts of, for example, polio.

I wonder whether that concern only for the self would be displayed in pushing to the front of the line when the impacts of not vaccinating becomes more apparent.

I don't disagree that chickenpox for most children is a fairly mild illness , but it's not a new vaccine. It's been around for years and the UK is one of the only developed countries not to offer it as part of routine child immunisations, although that is now about to change.

As a side note, my niece was incredibly ill with chickenpox and ended up hospitalised for over a week.

Resorting to calling people the C word. Nice.

I am not responsible for their health.

Until everyone stops vaccinating. The risk to your child is only low because others vaccinate theirs.

Do you all realise that the reason your children aren’t getting ill is because everyone else around them is vaccinated? and with this attitude, we will return to a world of people dying from preventable illness? I don’t want to live in such a world. All the people who refuse to be vaccinated should live together in an unvaccinated community and leave the vaccinated people together. It is madness.

Do you think mumsnet is social media? It's a forum. Just curious. As you were.

Chicken pox isn't a new vaccine, it's just newly available on the NHS. My son was very ill will it when he caught it thanks to a secondary infection - hospitalised for 48h with an uncontrollable temperature. I wouldn't wish that on anyone's family, so to me it seems like a very positive step to routinely vaccinate against such a common disease.

I didn’t vax mine for years because of ingredients, in the US. They did make a lot of changes and removed those ingredients since then. I got all my information from our government website reading the ingredients, etc. so I wasn’t getting crazy stuff from blogs or whatever. Most people in our community did vax, so the herd thing applied. However, on down the line I did go back to vaxxing, especially after some ingredients were removed and an allergy concern had been cleared. So I was never anti vaccination, but did decide against them for years. I do take science seriously and the effects of anti vaxxing is extremely obvious by the deadly outbreaks of measles we’ve been having over here. I don’t know about the world view, but the movement here has been very connected to religion. I actually used a religious waiver so my kids could still attend school without shots. It was SO embarrassing when I took my kids in and asked for the 14 million shots they needed catching up on though. I wouldn’t advise doing that either. Hopefully we all can have access to to vaccines without harmful ingredients, and can be educated on why they matter.

I'm not an antivaxer. My DC had all routine vaccinations. I do understand people being mistrusting of them though. The most recent new jabs are covid and chicken pox. For the majority of people their only experience with covid and chicken pox has been mild illness. People used to have chicken pox parties because it was believed to be best to get it out of the way whilst they were young. Chicken pox has never been seen as a serious virus we need to fear so why would the gov invest so much in it whilst sectors are desperate for investment we can't afford?With covid jabs there have been many reports of side effects, mainly in young people. As far as I am aware there isn't any strong evidence that they actually make much difference.
There have been huge mistakes with medication in the past which will also contribute to the mistrust.

It may well be reintroduced. But it’s going to be costly so they will continue to monitor.
There are “secret” TB clinics dotted around the country and as it has always been seen as a disease associated with poor living conditions and poor health monitoring is low key.
The problem with TB is that is quite good at living with you without causing symptoms. So many healthy people may have it lying dormant. Before rolling out TB vaccination they would have to do mass screening to identify who can have it. Anyone who tests positive would then have to be further investor treated with an expensive cocktail of antibiotics for a minimum of 6 months.
You can see where I am going with this?
Any government who embarks on this would potential bankrupt the NHS.

I think there was opposition when they stopped routinely vaccinating for TB and it is now becoming clear that it was probably a bad idea.

....so cite your sources then. And tell me why the low risk of complications is less of a risk than the risk from vaccine injury.

But doesn’t that also apply to vaccination injury?
Maybe have a look at the epidemiology
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/measles-historic-confirmed-cases-notifications-and-deaths/measles-historic-confirmed-cases-notifications-and-deaths
Initially confirmed cases appear to be increasing and have been doubling since the pandemic. Confirmed would be a nasal swab. But scroll down to notified and the increasing incidence of measles becomes more worrying. A lot of GPs can diagnose measles without a swab test, it is quite easy once you’ve seen a few. It is a notifiable disease so every case is reported.
Predictably 2020 was the lowest it’s been but look how rapidly it is growing and not just in London. I would estimate that the increase in cases is following an exponential curve. Worrying if you haven’t had measles or been vaccinated.

Can I just ask if you've looked up anything, anything at all, for yourself before contributing to this thread?