to want the anti-vaxxers to explain themselves?

One interesting vaccine scientist (a Danish Professor) is Christine Stabell-Benn. She posts (not that often) on X and specialises into research into the ‘non-specific’ effects of vaccines - that is, their effect on conditions other than the target infection.

For instance there is some research suggesting that (at least in lower income countries) some specific childhood vaccines decrease overall childhood mortality - ie are beneficial- in ways that go beyond protecting against the target infection.

For instance in the case of the measles vaccine, it seems not only to protect children against catching measles, but also to protect them against catching other potentially life threatening infections. This is a good thing.

Unfortunately, there is also research suggesting that, for other childhood vaccines (eg DTP) the opposite may be true, at least for certain demographics. This is not a good thing.

Her work brings out the immense complexity of vaccine science and the extent to which knowledge in it is- or should be- developing.

Uncritically supporting or opposing all vaccines is very like uncritically supporting or opposing all medicines. Some people, with some conditions, will benefit hugely from some medicines. Their lives will be saved. However that does not mean we should all stuff medicines down our throats as fast as we can, or force each other to take them. In the case of all medical interventions, there is always a cost/benefit assessment to be made & that requires research & information & willingness to accept facts that may be uncomfortable.

It is very unfortunate that hysteria (and profit) have made open and sensible assessment of costs and benefits for different demographics virtually impossible in the context of individual vaccines - and (see some rather wild posts above citing Brexit, Putin and the long defunct USSR) even potentially treasonous.

I agree with this. People see it as so black and white when it's not. I've had and my children have had all childhood vaccines, they'll get the HPV and any other boosters they need but I don't give them the flu or COVID vaccine. I'm not an anti vaxxer at all but I want to limit what they put in their bodies as there are risks with any vaccines and whilst on balance the standard vaccines benefit outweigh the risk, I don't feel it does for flu or COVID.

But I’m not using anecdotes - you are. I’m basing my opinions on published research data. And you, science.

You’ve know way of knowing if the people vaccinated would have been more sick, or died even, without the vaccine.

Vaccines save lives. We know that for sure. But if you give any medicine to billions of people, some will be unlucky and have an extreme, possibly dangerous, reaction to it. I once saw a man go into renal failure and die after being given dihydrocodeine post-op - a drug that millions of people will have taken with no side effects. But the vast majority of people will benefit from vaccination.

yes we do have many targeted therapies and biological agents - but chemotherapy was essentially a toxic substance that millions of people agreed to despite it not adding to cure rates for the majority of cancers. And chemotherapy is still much more commonly used for most common cancers than targeted/biological therapies.

And cancer vaccines are being developed - will the anti- vaxers accept those I wonder?

You are a little behind the times regarding cancer treatments - chemotherapy makes up just a small proportion of cancer treatments as we have immunotherapy and targeted treatments.
As for flu vaccines people will refuse until they catch flu and then the following year they are the first in the queue to be injected

They were both as sick as I was, so no benefit observed from the flu vaccine here as far as how sick people got. They gave it to me in the first place. My husband got a Covid vaccine a month before we all got Covid. He was also just a sick as the rest of us. I'm not saying don't get it but if we're using anecdotes, mine are just as valid.

I have had several, and only had covid once, and wasn't very ill with it.

I think people are forgetting that the vaccine did help slow the spread of it significantly, and that no vaccine is completely risk free.

I'm not sure about getting another covid vaccination though, but DH has recently undegone open heart surgery and if being vaccinated is going to protect us both then we will get vaccinated again.

I’ve had 9 I think, still here
was ill before I had them so it’s not given me any more issues!

I've had ten COVID vaccines and I'm no spring chicken. In the past I drank far too much and have a history of chest infections. The 'utter poison ' is certainly a slow killer. And most of my friends should surely be very ill if not dead , if 'Dr' John Campbell is correct. There should be all these deserted houses, like the Rapture?

Neither I nor my husband have had any Covid vaccines (or, in recent years, flu vaccines). I wouldn’t described myself as an “antivaxxer”. Our DC have had all their childhood vaccines. I am educated to degree level and my husband has a PHD.

There are plenty of nutters in the world and social media gives them a play to share their nuttiness.

There's a very simple answer for this. I know a LOT of people who feel they and/or their loved ones are suffering long term ill effects from the covid jab(s). Heart conditions, clotting disorders, gynae issues, general feelings of malaise, constant colds/infections etc plus a myriad other things.

One of the most pro vax people I know has totally sworn off having any more boosters which, after seeing how enthusiastic about it she was during the pandemic, has somewhat shocked me. But I'm pretty sure many people share these sentiments now.

Who is they? The government? We did actually need people to be making decisions and doing things. I know a lot of mistakes were made but hindsight makes experts of everyone and in the moment, they did what was reasonable. The fact that many people massively overreacted and reported their neighbours for going out for more than an hour or buying a newspaper is not their fault.

My DM had an adverse reaction to the flu vaccination - reported via Yellow Card system and told not to have future vaccinations. Health care professions and pharmacological companies acknowledge adverse reactions can and do occur.

The flu vaccine is known as a risk in triggering autoimmune conditions. DM developed severe rheumatoid arthritis with sudden onset. She had previously been in very good health. She was on strong steroid treatment for 5 years but then developed osteoporosis and suffered several fractures. She ended up as a regular rheumatology patient progressing from methotrexate to biologics and osteoporosis treatment plus other medication to treat known side effects.

For some unlucky people the risk of vaccination is greater than the risk of developing the illness being vaccinated against. Where there is a risk there needs to be informed consent and choice.

I do think there is a difference between avid anti-vaxxers and people who think constant flu and covid jabs are as or more detrimental to health than the viruses themselves and that these jabs are simply a cash cow for the pharmaceutical companies. Or they may have more of a conspiracy theory about them.

However, I think you can be reasonably sceptical of the constant push of these seasonal jabs and at the same time be in favour of core childhood vaccinations.

I think they want to help to reduce the overpopulation of the planet. How very altruistic of them.

Agree. Chemotherapy for cancer is hugely toxic and for the biggest majority of patients, does not cure them. Yet people will accept it to give them a few more months of life, despite causing hair loss, vomitting, loss of sensation, mouth ulcers etc.

Im not not dissing anyone’s choices, but I just cannot fathom why vaccines, especially the Covid vaccine, get so much hate over other medical treatments.

I wish people would stop confusing anecdata with peer reviewed science.

And two family members of mine had the flu vaccine and still got the flu this year

But no vaccine stops you contracting a virus - that’s not the point. It decreases the chance of you becoming extremely ill with it. Some people will have naturally stronger immune systems than others but there’s no way of knowing that so we vaccinate at population level.

Which is why the Covid vaccine is now only being offered to the extremely vulnerable - age 75+, care home residents and severely immunosuppressed. Our bodies have adapted to the virus with the help of the vaccine so younger, healthy people don’t need it any more.

I thought it was, but apparently not!

I just think that if you’re trying to make a particular group of people see how sensible it is to have vaccines, or vote a particular way in a national referendum, or refuse to support Reform, then making them feel small and stupid is not the best way to go about it. All it achieves is making them double down and historically that hasn’t improved much.

I’m in the health care field and had an elderly man (84) tell me last week he wasn’t getting his Covid jab because it gave King Charles prostate cancer!

I tried to gently explain that prostate cancer had been around way longer than the Covid vaccine and Charles was a prime age for getting it. But he couldn’t see past the fact that Charles “was fine” before the vaccine.

I’ve had extremely vulnerable older people with significant immunosuppression telling me they are not taking any more vaccines because their son/daughter doesn’t want them too. The same people who if they ended up in hospital with a severe pneumonia, would let doctors pump them full of anything to save their life!

Another one here who experienced months of truly horrendous bleeding meaning I’d have to change my clithes 3-4 times per day several days out of the month as a super tampon plus extra thick pad wouldn’t even stem to regular sudden gushing - theres lots of us out there.

It didn’t pass me by at all. It was completely intentional, as was your equally as rude response to it.

I don’t trust the government and the shit they come out with. Covid was apparently deadly etc etc and we all had to stay home… but they didn’t? Why would I believe what they say and get stressed about having another booster of god knows what?!