to want the anti-vaxxers to explain themselves?

Thanks for letting me know. You’re not an ‘antivaxxer’ though so it wouldn’t apply to you anyway.

True, though I base my decisions on my own research (I do know how to do it properly), my own experience and will happily decide against following recommendations if I don't believe following them to be in my or my family's best interests.

But surely that same logic can be applied to those who require hospital treatment following a vaccine-induced event?

The whole thing was handled appallingly. Shrouded in so much secrecy - if Pfizer wanting 75 years to release data regarding its Covid jab wasn't a red flag for people, I don't know what would be!

It takes 14 to 21 days to be fully effective. You were already 'cooking' your flu bug when you had the vaccine. Unfortunate timing, that's all.
Unless you avoid people all the time, you don't know if you've been in contact with an immunocompromised person.

This! I mean, seriously, as if 'going to the gym' would cause this hemorrhaging!? People really will believe any old bollocks!

I’ve only ever had flu once and it was three days after my only ever flu jab.
I decided that the jab doesn’t work for me, so have never had one since and don’t allow my DC to have it at school either. We are a healthy household, generally, and have no contact with immunocompromised people. We don’t need it.

Having said that, we’re not anti-vaxxers.
DC had all MMR etc when little, and DD had the HPV vaccine etc.

Did I miss anyone with an explanation? Do most people who get flu end up in hospital? There's Influenza A going round a local school, too early for the flumist to have been administered, only one child hospitalised.

I was referring to the younger children of older people - so say a daughter telling her 84 father not to be vaccinated because she was anti-vaccine. If the daughter ended up in hospital with say, pneumonia, she’d likely accept all possible medical treatment to survive.

I do agree that older people’s autonomy often compromised by both medical staff and their families.

Fair enough. But public health policy can only be built on quantitative research results. Experience is too subjective to be able to be applied to millions of people.

Facebook is shite, full of scammers, why are you even on it OP?

It happened to many people after the jab. I'm sure they didn't ALL have other things going on

I find stories like this upsetting for a number of reasons. I hope you're all sorted now, Berlin, and feeling okay.

The most common symptom of uterine (womb) cancer is abnormal vaginal bleeding. The unusual bleeding you experienced was a warning of the cancer. The fact that you had your Covid jab at the time is a coincidence, not a cause.

There are other things you will have done for the first time around then, too. You might have tried a new food or drink, visited somewhere, started a different gym class, switched vitamin brands, all sorts of things. You could just as well blame any of them for the bleeding. But what caused it was already going on in your cells - it wasn't started by anything you did at all.

Hmm on the point of the old people " letting" doctors pump them full of us , many of them don't get given a choice. They are told " we will give you such and such drug" Rarely discussed before doing so. Even if patient says no theyre often " persuaded".ie bullied .

My mum had an advance directive refusing treatment in case of certain events. The trouble getting hospital staff to abide by it was awful. . They kept saying that she didn't have capacity to decide ( this was what the directive was set up for) Whenwe pointed this out then they telling us she wasn't refusing treatment at the time ( she couldn't speak due to a stroke)

So no all old people don't want to be " pumped full of the drugs"

Funmily enough she had her first covid vaccine, a few days before the stroe so she wasn't antivax

Aĺ I know is I get the vaccine free at work and I'm the only member of my household currently not in bed with flu looking dreadful..

Antibiotics and vaccinations are the two most incredible inventions, saving billions of lives since their introduction and eliminating most of the diseases that plagued human civilisations.

Yes, a tiny percentage of people are sadly harmed by them. I nearly died from an antibiotic reaction. I still take antibiotics, just not that type, and I have every vax going.

Agree that you'll never get them to explain in any way that makes sense objectively, OP. Their objections are emotional; they seek out authoritative-sounding reports that seem to give substance to their fears; they dismiss everything else. "You can't reason with the unreasonable", as the saying goes.

It’s clearly not that it “never makes sense”. I wouldn’t call myself an antivaxxer, but you would. I had a severe toxic reaction to a vaccine when I was 2. My parents were told I wouldn’t survive. I did. My medical notes say “Do not vaccinate”. What is there that doesn’t make sense?
Most people who you would call antivaxxers used to vaccinate. After experiencing a severe reaction themselves or in their child they stopped. Until you experience that sort of thing you won’t understand. Wouldn’t wish it in you.

Yes, if Covid or flu got my son at the time, they would probably have put something like respiratory failure. Horrible thought.

You also have no way of knowing if they would have done just as well, or better, without the vaccine.

I'm not disputing that vaccines can save lives but, if you are the one person who has severe life altering damage, all those lives saved aren't really much comfort.

I personally am a fan of mixed methods research and put a lot of weight on qualitative, rather than quantitative, data. Individual stories, or anecdotes, do have value and meaning, especially if there are commonalities. Numbers and percentages are only part of the story and so impersonal.

Normally in cases like this, it's the underlying condition that is put on the death certificate. So when your elderly grandmother dies because her heart gives out after the flu, cause of death is heart failure and flu is an aggravating factor.

I don't know about the UK, but where I live, they actually hanged this for covid, for some reason people started to demand covid be put on the death certificate no matter what the underlying factor was.

One effect of this is that now, for the data in my country, it's impossible to compare how deadly covid was compared to things like flu.

It's not a thing where everyone has to think all vaccines are a great idea for all.

I've met doctors, working in the area of immunology, who aren't particularly into the flu vaccine. They think there are so many types of viruses like the flu that circulate that spending the money that the flu vaccine costs, when it will only work for a small proportion of infections. is not an effective use of resources.

I think many people do not understand the massive damage that has been done because of the way the covid vaccine was pushed on people.

It's funny, because there are many public health organizations and charities that work to try and spread vaccination in countries where there is low trust, where peopel may for example believe the government is trying to sterilize them, or they believe in things like witchcraft. One of the most important principles in these kinds of place is - do not force vaccination. It will backfire.

Public health people KNOW this. They knew. They majorly fucked up.

The UK was fairly moderate compared to some countries. Where I live, "officially" no one was required to take it by the state. But the state encouraged employers to require it of their employees. I would have been put on unpaid leave if I didn't get it. I knew people who worked completely alone who had to get it in order to keep contracts.

It was extremely invasive, and there were a lot of official sources that were telling people it might give near perfect immunity, like a measles vaccine. Or ridiculing people concerned about the fast track with testing. People came to realise the media was being dishonest in its reporting and that too made them lose trust.

The second part of this is when people see something like this going on, right after they think - I can trust these authorities, they think - ok, why are they doing this? And a lot of the time they do not believe all these scientists and the medical sector and the government are just fucking stupid. They think, there must be some agenda to get them all on the same page. They are trying to fuck us over. Why? Well, usually, for money or for power are going to be the possibilities.

And every conspiracy theory comes out of that.

My DM who was an otherwise healthy 69 year old had life changing vaccine damage from the flu jab in autumn last year, we came close to losing her. It has been admitted by doctors that it was the flu jab that caused her issues. So I don’t think blindly trusting the vaccine programmes is necessarily wise.

the clue is it wasn’t just the government. It was scientists