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AIBU?

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Original poster

To think this is a poor excuse for men not wanting to enter these jobs?

134 replies

PrincessSophieFrederike · 07/10/2025 00:24

I came across this interesting Substack post the other day from a US feminist. She was talking about the lack of men entering professions like veterinary medicine, teaching, library science, etc which are now female-dominated, despite the fact that these were all originally male-only professions. She argues that men are put off female dominated jobs for fear of being seen as less masculine. She had a similar argument for why men are enrolling less in college there.

I also think a factor is that female-dominated workplaces may have on average communication styles which rely more on indirect messaging & ways of expressing conflict, whereas male-dominated workplaces tend to resolve conflict & compete more overtly. Ofc this is a stereotype & not true for many people, but I has some accuracy.

Overall, I do find it a bit of a frustrating excuse. I can understand men who prefer stereotypical male communication styles feeling less comfortable in a female-dominated workplace. Another factor is that women are more likely to promote woke stuff like TRA stuff which many, maybe most, men dislike. (Obvs many women do too, but unluckily women also promote it more). I can also understand concerns about making friends in a female-dominated workplace. (Ofc men & women can be friends, but they might understandably want more men around. Plus a lot of women might be suspicious of a man's female friends- sometimes with good reason.)

I have a lot of sympathy for things like the decline of traditional manual labour & spaces to meet & , the resultant rise in poor male mental health & suicide. But on this issue I'm more sceptical.

Women had to enter plenty of workplaces where until recently they had been legally banned. Sexual harassment is still a big problem in quite a few jobs. Generally women were told to toughen up, for a long time.
Whereas looking up other articles, we're told how men are 'intimidated' by going into a 60% female veterinary class. As I said above, I sympathise with some concerns they might have, but 'intimidated' seems a bit much. Ofc women can be bullies, but I doubt men who enter such jobs will be sexually harassed or seen as less competent due to their sex. Anecdotally, my gran always told me that the few male teachers at the school she taught at were very popular with the female staff. Surely it's similar for other jobs sometimes?

TLDR : AIBU to think it's a bit much for articles to talk about men being intimidated by female-dominated colleges & workplaces, whereas until recently (and some still say this) women were told to toughen up & adapt to male-dominated (and often sexist) ones?

OP posts:
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5
Pigeonpoodle · 07/10/2025 17:33

It works both ways. There are plenty of jobs you could apply this to in reverse… In those, employers are generally expected to make them more female-friendly.

Men, in general, don’t want to do some types of job.

Women, in general, don’t want to do some types of job.

Horses for courses!

We shouldn’t get antsy about this for men unless we also do for women.

ILikeBigBookssandIcannotlie · 07/10/2025 17:32

Crushed23 · 07/10/2025 15:24

I gave two examples of medical specialisms that are relatively higher paid than others that are female dominated: dermatology and aesthetic medicine. I’m sure there are more. City Law firms (highest paying areas of Law) have experienced a phenomenal increase in female representation in the last couple of decades and pay has not been adversely affected by it (the exact opposite, in fact - the associates’ pay has more than doubled since I graduated 12 years ago).

Show quote history

Dermatology/aesthetics are of course going to pay better than sectors dominated by the
NHS

Crushed23 · 07/10/2025 17:26

Also, I wouldn’t bother googling. Pay is very opaque in some industries. You need to be speaking to recruiters on a semi-regular basis. They will have recent, first hand experience of placing people with your skill set in roles and the most up to date information on pay.

Crushed23 · 07/10/2025 17:15

FirstCuppa · 07/10/2025 17:06

It's also never been so easy to Google "is there a reason women get paid less" and get an answer.

Remember, a lot of jobs don't even have salaries on the job descriptions, so the companies can get away with paying whatever they think they can.

Companies have always tried to optimise their labour costs and maximise profits. Whose responsibility is it to make sure you are being paid in line with the market? I’m not going to passively sit back and put my trust in senior management and boards of directors, you can if you want to.

FirstCuppa · 07/10/2025 17:06

It's also never been so easy to Google "is there a reason women get paid less" and get an answer.

Remember, a lot of jobs don't even have salaries on the job descriptions, so the companies can get away with paying whatever they think they can.

Crushed23 · 07/10/2025 16:42

If you’re not putting yourself forward for promotion or you’re not asking for a pay rise, that’s on you. There is no great conspiracy to purposely pay women less. Indeed, it’s never been easier to research pay and benchmark yourself against the market. Advocate for yourself - it’s no one else’s responsibility but yours.

SomethingFun · 07/10/2025 15:42

I work in a male dominated industry and in general women are allowed a space if they don’t threaten the men’s views of themselves as being ‘better’ than women. For a woman to be judged as equally good as a man she has to be doing a lot more than they do and will still be resented for it.

When I’ve worked in female dominated professions men generally got more senior roles more quickly and women were expected to support them in a way that we weren’t expected to support other women. Standards for those men in general were lower than what was expected of women at the same level.

So ime, either way men get it easier than women and will earn more as they will be promoted faster and with less effort required. This will of course be turned round into the women having imposter syndrome and waiting til they meet 100% of the criteria to apply for roles so only having themselves to blame.

Crushed23 · 07/10/2025 15:24

ILikeBigBookssandIcannotlie · 07/10/2025 15:17

And also, it's always worth comparing female dominated areas of law /medicine against areas that aren't yet female dominated, rather than just generalising about law /medicine as a totality

Noone is saying it is what should happen. But it is pretty clear it is what does happen (allowing for a bit of a lag time for salaries to shift of course)

Show quote history

I gave two examples of medical specialisms that are relatively higher paid than others that are female dominated: dermatology and aesthetic medicine. I’m sure there are more. City Law firms (highest paying areas of Law) have experienced a phenomenal increase in female representation in the last couple of decades and pay has not been adversely affected by it (the exact opposite, in fact - the associates’ pay has more than doubled since I graduated 12 years ago).

FirstCuppa · 07/10/2025 15:22

Crushed23 · 07/10/2025 15:20

There are all kinds of reasons than two people with the same job title don’t get paid the exact same wage, such as working part-time, performance rating, different levels of experience etc. But two junior doctors working the same shift pattern with the same years of experience earn exactly the same. Two associates on a law graduate scheme with the same performance rating will be paid the same. And so on. Don’t forget also that the female consultants, senior barristers and law partners are relatively more junior (as the increase in female representation is a fairly recent phenomenon). A 40 year-old law partner of any gender will get paid less than a 60 year-old partner who has decades more experience.

Talking about pure averages within a profession tells us nothing.

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I'd love to believe you. Do you have any research to read?

Crushed23 · 07/10/2025 15:20

FirstCuppa · 07/10/2025 15:14

But by that logic all women in the same job roles would be paid the same as men in the role - which we know isn't the case. If more women enter and we know they are usually paid less than men, of course the average wage will go down.

Show quote history

There are all kinds of reasons than two people with the same job title don’t get paid the exact same wage, such as working part-time, performance rating, different levels of experience etc. But two junior doctors working the same shift pattern with the same years of experience earn exactly the same. Two associates on a law graduate scheme with the same performance rating will be paid the same. And so on. Don’t forget also that the female consultants, senior barristers and law partners are relatively more junior (as the increase in female representation is a fairly recent phenomenon). A 40 year-old law partner of any gender will get paid less than a 60 year-old partner who has decades more experience.

Talking about pure averages within a profession tells us nothing.

ILikeBigBookssandIcannotlie · 07/10/2025 15:17

FirstCuppa · 07/10/2025 15:14

But by that logic all women in the same job roles would be paid the same as men in the role - which we know isn't the case. If more women enter and we know they are usually paid less than men, of course the average wage will go down.

Show quote history

And also, it's always worth comparing female dominated areas of law /medicine against areas that aren't yet female dominated, rather than just generalising about law /medicine as a totality

Noone is saying it is what should happen. But it is pretty clear it is what does happen (allowing for a bit of a lag time for salaries to shift of course)

FirstCuppa · 07/10/2025 15:14

Crushed23 · 07/10/2025 15:11

If there are instances of this (and there are as many instances showing the opposite trend - see my post above about surgeons, barristers and law partners), it will be a simple case of supply and demand. When more people qualify in a field (of any gender), then wages typically come down, because you don’t need to pay more to attract talent, ie there are fewer jobs than people able to do those jobs and looking to do them.

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But by that logic all women in the same job roles would be paid the same as men in the role - which we know isn't the case. If more women enter and we know they are usually paid less than men, of course the average wage will go down.

ILikeBigBookssandIcannotlie · 07/10/2025 15:13

I think the issue is partly that (for all kinds of complex and frustrating reasons) it seems that when women become a large percentage of a particular profession people then seem to devalue that profession and it tends to end up lower paid than it was.
I don't know what the solution is but it is a trend I have noticed a lot

Crushed23 · 07/10/2025 15:11

FirstCuppa · 07/10/2025 15:07

Actually there are studies that show it does - the Feminisation Effect - programming and nursing are 2 examples.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0927537121001378

Edited
Show quote history

If there are instances of this (and there are as many instances showing the opposite trend - see my post above about surgeons, barristers and law partners), it will be a simple case of supply and demand. When more people qualify in a field (of any gender), then wages typically come down, because you don’t need to pay more to attract talent, ie there are fewer jobs than people able to do those jobs and looking to do them.

FirstCuppa · 07/10/2025 15:07

Crushed23 · 07/10/2025 15:05

But a profession doesn’t BECOME lower paid as women enter it, as has been suggested. That’s a complete nonsense.

Show quote history

Actually there are studies that show it does - the Feminisation Effect - programming and nursing are 2 examples.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0927537121001378

Crushed23 · 07/10/2025 15:05

FeistyFrankie · 07/10/2025 15:03

I dont think it's that complicated. Female-dominated professions tend to pay less and men tend to go after better-paid jobs.

But a profession doesn’t BECOME lower paid as women enter it, as has been suggested. That’s a complete nonsense.

FeistyFrankie · 07/10/2025 15:03

I dont think it's that complicated. Female-dominated professions tend to pay less and men tend to go after better-paid jobs.

Crushed23 · 07/10/2025 14:59

CuckooPond · 07/10/2025 08:28

Yes to your point about the prestige of a field lessening sharply as more women enter it.

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Tell me, have consultant surgeons experienced a sharp decline in their standing in society as the female representation increased from 1 in 20 to 1 in 5 over the past 30 years? How about senior barristers, which show the same trend? Or Magic Circle equity law partners?

Where is this steep lessening of prestige among these professions that you speak of?

Original poster
PrincessSophieFrederike · 07/10/2025 14:41

LoveSandbanks · 07/10/2025 11:37

I studied IT at uni and was the only woman on my course. In the workplace I was the only woman on my team.

im afraid I’ve got no time for men going into places where they’ll be one of 40%. I thought they thought themselves as the “stronger sex” 🙄

Yes, it feels ironic to say the least to see MRAs make this kind of argument while in the same breath saying that men are stronger & more resilient.

OP posts:
JHound · 07/10/2025 14:29

LoveSandbanks · 07/10/2025 11:37

I studied IT at uni and was the only woman on my course. In the workplace I was the only woman on my team.

im afraid I’ve got no time for men going into places where they’ll be one of 40%. I thought they thought themselves as the “stronger sex” 🙄

I think this is a “majority /default” problem. If have seen this numerous times, especially on gender and race. When individuals see themselves as the “default” in society then they tend to react in this manner to entering any space where they are a minority.

And they still demonstrate zero empathy for minorities / “non-defaults” who may express similar discomfort in similar environments.

JHound · 07/10/2025 14:18

HerewardtheSleepy · 07/10/2025 00:43

In the US possibly. Outside the US I am very doubtful.

Why?

JHound · 07/10/2025 11:57

I expect it’s true. Things coded as feminine have lower status and accordingly are lower paid which is probably part of the turn off for men. The only exception to this appears to be industries where women are objectified (such as modelling.)

I read that while teaching is feminised a disproportionate amount of headteachers are male. Which is part of the status / pay issue.

Greggsit · 07/10/2025 11:51

FirstCuppa · 07/10/2025 10:35

The problem is unfortunately that men are the biggest perpetrators of this kind of abuse in these settings. If men are as a sex struggling with empathy - which we know stems from lack of reading, and willing to do things like pay for AI girlfriends to be submissive, they are not going to be as safe around vulnerable people. Men have a choice on the way forward with these things and as a society we need to pay more attention to the building blocks of empathy if we want a more equal setting in the workplace and even crime reduction.

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Sorry, what? Men don't read so they've no empathy?

LoveSandbanks · 07/10/2025 11:37

I studied IT at uni and was the only woman on my course. In the workplace I was the only woman on my team.

im afraid I’ve got no time for men going into places where they’ll be one of 40%. I thought they thought themselves as the “stronger sex” 🙄

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