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To think this is a poor excuse for men not wanting to enter these jobs?

134 replies

PrincessSophieFrederike · 07/10/2025 00:24

I came across this interesting Substack post the other day from a US feminist. She was talking about the lack of men entering professions like veterinary medicine, teaching, library science, etc which are now female-dominated, despite the fact that these were all originally male-only professions. She argues that men are put off female dominated jobs for fear of being seen as less masculine. She had a similar argument for why men are enrolling less in college there.

I also think a factor is that female-dominated workplaces may have on average communication styles which rely more on indirect messaging & ways of expressing conflict, whereas male-dominated workplaces tend to resolve conflict & compete more overtly. Ofc this is a stereotype & not true for many people, but I has some accuracy.

Overall, I do find it a bit of a frustrating excuse. I can understand men who prefer stereotypical male communication styles feeling less comfortable in a female-dominated workplace. Another factor is that women are more likely to promote woke stuff like TRA stuff which many, maybe most, men dislike. (Obvs many women do too, but unluckily women also promote it more). I can also understand concerns about making friends in a female-dominated workplace. (Ofc men & women can be friends, but they might understandably want more men around. Plus a lot of women might be suspicious of a man's female friends- sometimes with good reason.)

I have a lot of sympathy for things like the decline of traditional manual labour & spaces to meet & , the resultant rise in poor male mental health & suicide. But on this issue I'm more sceptical.

Women had to enter plenty of workplaces where until recently they had been legally banned. Sexual harassment is still a big problem in quite a few jobs. Generally women were told to toughen up, for a long time.
Whereas looking up other articles, we're told how men are 'intimidated' by going into a 60% female veterinary class. As I said above, I sympathise with some concerns they might have, but 'intimidated' seems a bit much. Ofc women can be bullies, but I doubt men who enter such jobs will be sexually harassed or seen as less competent due to their sex. Anecdotally, my gran always told me that the few male teachers at the school she taught at were very popular with the female staff. Surely it's similar for other jobs sometimes?

TLDR : AIBU to think it's a bit much for articles to talk about men being intimidated by female-dominated colleges & workplaces, whereas until recently (and some still say this) women were told to toughen up & adapt to male-dominated (and often sexist) ones?

OP posts:
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IAmThePrettiestManOnMyIsland · 09/10/2025 19:10

EBearhug · 09/10/2025 18:19

Which scientifically proven differences?
Have you read Delusions of Gender (Cordelia Fine) or anything by Gina Rippon?

Maybe anyone can be a cleaner, but our cleaners are some of the most important people in the building and some of the busiest. They probably deserve danger money at some of the desks...

'Which scientifically proven differences?' men and women's brains studies - Google Search

'Maybe anyone can be a cleaner, but our cleaners are some of the most important people in the building and some of the busiest.' I'm not knocking cleaners for one minute. My sister used to do housekeeping at our hospital. I'm simply pointing out wages are determined by qualifications, ability, rarity and demand.

Before you continue to Google Search

https://www.google.com/search?q=men+and+womens+brains+studies&sca_esv=2afd3ac4ae6c0b30&ei=a_fnaO_nN-qyhbIPiJiB6Q4&ved=0ahUKEwivyem42JeQAxVqWUEAHQhMIO0Q4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=men+and+womens+brains+studies&gs_lp=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-6NfhK-6BgQIARgHugYGCAIQARgKkgcHMTEuMTguMaAHyssCsgcHMTAuMTguMbgH6BrCBwkyLTExLjE3LjLIB6sC&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

Crushed23 · 09/10/2025 19:10

PrincessSophieFrederike · 09/10/2025 19:06

Exactly, that's the whole point of the articles I linked! That once the % of women exceeds that of men, men no longer join.

Who gives a fuck if men don’t become doctors? Certainly not me. Every sub-standard experience I’ve had as a patient has been with a male doctor. I’m in the US where there is more choice and I always choose a female doctor for any kind of issue.

PrincessSophieFrederike · 09/10/2025 19:06

Crushed23 · 09/10/2025 18:20

Huh? Most vets are women. In the US it’s 67%. Not veterinary nurses, actual vets.

In the UK, most doctors are women. Again, not nurses, DOCTORS.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8rkyk7rglpo.amp

Exactly, that's the whole point of the articles I linked! That once the % of women exceeds that of men, men no longer join.

OP posts:
IAmThePrettiestManOnMyIsland · 09/10/2025 19:04

GoldenRosebee · 09/10/2025 17:53

I'm also interested to see number of unmarried working women.

Around 60 - 65% of girls/women aged 15 - 64.

IAmThePrettiestManOnMyIsland · 09/10/2025 18:59

JHound · 09/10/2025 17:27

What is your source for the claim only 6% of married women worked in the 1900s?

what percent of married women worked uk 1900 - Search

It was the first result on Bing. Google has it at 10%. What appears to be more likely is the info from the 1901 census which has married women with a listed occupation at aprox 13%. Which is still very low.

what percent of married women worked uk 1900 - Bing

Intelligent search from Bing makes it easier to quickly find what you’re looking for and rewards you.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=what%20percent%20of%20married%20women%20worked%20uk%201900&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&ghc=1&lq=0&pq=what%20percent%20of%20married%20women%20worked%20uk%201900&sc=12-44&sk=&cvid=B935BB89CD504DD98E895DE276DC7036

HappyNewTaxYear · 09/10/2025 18:42

5128gap · 07/10/2025 05:33

I work in a women dominated sector. I've worked with some excellent male colleagues. However, I've noticed some patterns in behaviour amongst others.
The expectation of a quick rise through the ranks and very high dissatisfaction if lose a promotion/opportunity to a woman. Reluctance to accept any criticism or their ideas not being taken forward. Need for high levels of praise from women managers. General attitude of being too good for the job, but doing it because it's a good thing to do, so you're lucky to have them. Regular requests for pay increases despite earnings on par with role and sector. Setting themselves apart from women, expecting special treatment, being 'looked after', performative incompetence of lower level tasks so women 'help'.
So my conclusion is that there is a pattern where men have a different outlook towards 'female' jobs. Summed up be thinking they are too good for them really so should be seen as a special prize and afforded special treatment.

Are you in teaching? I found exactly the same as you in the world of education.

Crushed23 · 09/10/2025 18:20

telestrations · 09/10/2025 17:32

One factor may be that previously male dominated sectors and roles tend to be less well paid once they become less so. Not quite sure on cause and effect: if they become less well paid because women enter or women are allowed to enter as they become less well paid. But it's a thing

Overall I hate the idea of an entire sex/gender requiring an "excuse" to not "toughen up" and go into a sector or role they simply don't want. Also most vets are men and veterinary nurses women which mirrors everywhere else in terms of high years and cost of study, high pay and status = mens job vs. low = womens.

Huh? Most vets are women. In the US it’s 67%. Not veterinary nurses, actual vets.

In the UK, most doctors are women. Again, not nurses, DOCTORS.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8rkyk7rglpo.amp

Three women doctors sit on chairs smiling and chatting.

More women doctors than men for first time in UK - BBC News

A driving factor is the rising number of women joining medical schools, the General Medical Council says.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8rkyk7rglpo.amp

EBearhug · 09/10/2025 18:19

IAmThePrettiestManOnMyIsland · 09/10/2025 10:48

What's the more likely reason?

Scientifically proven differences between the male/female brain resulting in the sexes gravitating towards different things or some woman hypothesising that men are intimidated working in female dominated professions?

Which scientifically proven differences?
Have you read Delusions of Gender (Cordelia Fine) or anything by Gina Rippon?

Maybe anyone can be a cleaner, but our cleaners are some of the most important people in the building and some of the busiest. They probably deserve danger money at some of the desks...

GoldenRosebee · 09/10/2025 17:53

JHound · 09/10/2025 17:27

What is your source for the claim only 6% of married women worked in the 1900s?

I'm also interested to see number of unmarried working women.

InMyShowgirlEra · 09/10/2025 17:39

You're not completely wrong but there is a fairly substantial minority of people who are outright hostile to men in childcare roles and say that they would not want a man doing personal care or being alone with their child. It comes up from time to time on here.

telestrations · 09/10/2025 17:32

One factor may be that previously male dominated sectors and roles tend to be less well paid once they become less so. Not quite sure on cause and effect: if they become less well paid because women enter or women are allowed to enter as they become less well paid. But it's a thing

Overall I hate the idea of an entire sex/gender requiring an "excuse" to not "toughen up" and go into a sector or role they simply don't want. Also most vets are men and veterinary nurses women which mirrors everywhere else in terms of high years and cost of study, high pay and status = mens job vs. low = womens.

JHound · 09/10/2025 17:27

IAmThePrettiestManOnMyIsland · 09/10/2025 15:40

I'm not missing the point at all, it's more complexed than simply suggesting 'male flight' phenomena, (which has many reasons in itself) or in the case of this thread, 'men are intimidated.'

Historically, men have dominated most professions. If you go back to 1900 only 6% of married women worked. As demand increased across different sectors women started to fill the gaps, being emboldened by societal changes and able due to easier access to education.

'Suggesting it was the number of women that put them off, not the job.' This may factor in but it isn't really measurable nor is it the sole reason.

'Or do you think the men who became vets, primary teachers etc before were only doing that because they felt forced to?' Could you rephrase your question as I'm not sure what you are trying to get at. Who said anything about being forced into jobs?

What is your source for the claim only 6% of married women worked in the 1900s?

JHound · 09/10/2025 17:26

IAmThePrettiestManOnMyIsland · 09/10/2025 10:53

Pay is largely determined by qualifications and how 'rare' your skill set is.
Anyone can be a cleaner, not everyone can be a brain surgeon.

No. As industries become female dominated average pay falls and the opposite is true for industries that become male dominated.

Over simpflication to say it’s to do simply with skills.

ZoggyStirdust · 09/10/2025 15:54

Octavia64 · 07/10/2025 08:36

Men are also put off by other accusations.

you can see it on here - people say “why would a man want to work in a nursery? He must be a paedophile (or more gently - I worry about his motivations)”

same also happens for primary school teachers.

Very much this. There have been some horrible threads where any man in those jobs is pretty much labelled a paedophile.

presume that judgement happens in the real world but isn’t openly voiced as much as it can be on here

IAmThePrettiestManOnMyIsland · 09/10/2025 15:48

PrincessSophieFrederike · 09/10/2025 15:01

Do you think anyone can be an elder care worker, primary teacher or nursery worker?

Sure, anyone can do the basic skills- but can just anyone do them as they should be done? Would you like your parents or kids to be cared for or taught by just anyone?

This kind of disrespect for those who care for some of the most vulnerable is deeply unhelpful.

I think it takes a caring nature to be a good carer, which is not something everyone possesses. However, you could leave school with nothing GCSEs and walk into a caring role. In terms of qualifications required it is much easier to become a carer than it is to become a brain surgeon. A brain surgeon could do the job of a carer, a carer could not do the job of a brain surgeon, this is why the wages are vastly different.

'This kind of disrespect for those who care for some of the most vulnerable is deeply unhelpful.' What 'disrespect' are you talking about? Stating that unskilled labour is paid less than highly skilled labour is just a fact of life. That's not to say low paid jobs are not valuable to society because they definitely are.

IAmThePrettiestManOnMyIsland · 09/10/2025 15:40

PrincessSophieFrederike · 09/10/2025 14:58

You're missing the point though. Stuff like psychology, library sciences, veterinary medicine & primary school teaching used to be all-male

. It was when they became mostly female that men seemed to no longer want to do them much. Suggesting it was the number of women that put them off, not the job.

Or do you think the men who became vets, primary teachers etc before were only doing that because they felt forced to? 🤔

I'm not missing the point at all, it's more complexed than simply suggesting 'male flight' phenomena, (which has many reasons in itself) or in the case of this thread, 'men are intimidated.'

Historically, men have dominated most professions. If you go back to 1900 only 6% of married women worked. As demand increased across different sectors women started to fill the gaps, being emboldened by societal changes and able due to easier access to education.

'Suggesting it was the number of women that put them off, not the job.' This may factor in but it isn't really measurable nor is it the sole reason.

'Or do you think the men who became vets, primary teachers etc before were only doing that because they felt forced to?' Could you rephrase your question as I'm not sure what you are trying to get at. Who said anything about being forced into jobs?

PrincessSophieFrederike · 09/10/2025 15:01

IAmThePrettiestManOnMyIsland · 09/10/2025 10:53

Pay is largely determined by qualifications and how 'rare' your skill set is.
Anyone can be a cleaner, not everyone can be a brain surgeon.

Do you think anyone can be an elder care worker, primary teacher or nursery worker?

Sure, anyone can do the basic skills- but can just anyone do them as they should be done? Would you like your parents or kids to be cared for or taught by just anyone?

This kind of disrespect for those who care for some of the most vulnerable is deeply unhelpful.

OP posts:
PrincessSophieFrederike · 09/10/2025 14:58

IAmThePrettiestManOnMyIsland · 09/10/2025 10:48

What's the more likely reason?

Scientifically proven differences between the male/female brain resulting in the sexes gravitating towards different things or some woman hypothesising that men are intimidated working in female dominated professions?

You're missing the point though. Stuff like psychology, library sciences, veterinary medicine & primary school teaching used to be all-male

. It was when they became mostly female that men seemed to no longer want to do them much. Suggesting it was the number of women that put them off, not the job.

Or do you think the men who became vets, primary teachers etc before were only doing that because they felt forced to? 🤔

OP posts:
everychildmatters · 09/10/2025 12:24

@IAmThePrettiestManOnMyIsland My husband works as an adult social worker (unqualified as yet). He works in a large team of nearly all women which he comfortable with. The pay isn't great and he said when he started dating again after his divorce, his job did put some women off - guessing because he definitely is not anywhere near a high earner. It is also not what some women would see as a "masculine" job choice.
For me, the fact that he is in a caring profession ticked boxes, especially as I had two relatively young children when I started dating again. I also felt that he would be able to be more present than a man who was working every hour to earn the big money.
I was right ❤️

OxfordInkling · 09/10/2025 10:57

Morningsleepin · 07/10/2025 01:42

IMHO, once a profession is seen as being dominated by women, there is a significant drop in salaries.

This!

Men can usually see where the money is going to be. Women (on the whole, not each individually) have a nasty habit of over working for too little money, and not demanding pay rises. Ergo, any profession they dominate will likely be underpaid and under appreciated in short order. So the men do the ‘other’ job that will have money and prestige instead.

IAmThePrettiestManOnMyIsland · 09/10/2025 10:53

EBearhug · 09/10/2025 00:00

Yes, but they're paid less because they're females dominated.

Think about what's involved in childcare, teaching, nursing - caring for people who may have complex needs, may not be able to communicate well, someone could die in the worst case if you get it wrong. Important work, needs varied skills, training, intelligence. Not as well paid as many other jobs that also need varied skills, training, Intelligence.

Pay is largely determined by qualifications and how 'rare' your skill set is.
Anyone can be a cleaner, not everyone can be a brain surgeon.

IAmThePrettiestManOnMyIsland · 09/10/2025 10:48

What's the more likely reason?

Scientifically proven differences between the male/female brain resulting in the sexes gravitating towards different things or some woman hypothesising that men are intimidated working in female dominated professions?

EBearhug · 09/10/2025 00:00

TheGreatWesternShrew · 08/10/2025 23:20

I think it’s because female dominated areas pay less. Men don’t want less money.

Yes, but they're paid less because they're females dominated.

Think about what's involved in childcare, teaching, nursing - caring for people who may have complex needs, may not be able to communicate well, someone could die in the worst case if you get it wrong. Important work, needs varied skills, training, intelligence. Not as well paid as many other jobs that also need varied skills, training, Intelligence.

everychildmatters · 08/10/2025 23:23

I think one reason men seek out higher-paid jobs is that they aware women often want a partner who earns well. I'm not one of them - my husband works in a female-dominated social care environment - but I know many do.

TheGreatWesternShrew · 08/10/2025 23:20

I think it’s because female dominated areas pay less. Men don’t want less money.

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