Page 32 | To finally agree with a junior doctors strike

Horsehow · 2025-10-06T17:20:54+00:00

Junior doctors have decided to strike as they are being overlooked for jobs / training posts which are instead given to international applicants. I’ve always abhorred their money grabbing strikes in the past, but support this one 100%. UK doctors should be recruited where possible, and international graduates only turned to where we cannot find a suitable recruit in the UK.

PurpleFairyLights · 06/10/2025 20:42

Wishiwasatailor · 06/10/2025 20:37

@Janesmom say you are a junior teacher/accountant/engineer/coder looking for your next job so you can develop and learn new skills so you apply for junior accountancy/engineering/it jobs but every single job has hundreds of Professors/CFO/COO/CIOs applying. They are massively over qualified for those jobs and it means the normal progression for juniors to develop into seniors just isn't there.

Love the Janet and John explanation. I think it was very much needed.

Wishiwasatailor · 06/10/2025 20:37

@Janesmom say you are a junior teacher/accountant/engineer/coder looking for your next job so you can develop and learn new skills so you apply for junior accountancy/engineering/it jobs but every single job has hundreds of Professors/CFO/COO/CIOs applying. They are massively over qualified for those jobs and it means the normal progression for juniors to develop into seniors just isn't there.

Original poster

Horsehow · 06/10/2025 20:36

Stompythedinosaur · 06/10/2025 20:26

I absolutely support their right to campaign for fair pay and treatment.

They wouldn't have to strike if the government negotiated.

I totally do not support their ridiculous whining over pay. Yes the starting salary is poor but 10 years in and they’re in the top 10% of earners. If they have a training post, and only the very poor UK candidates (say bottom10%) should be denied a training post.

OP posts:

PurpleFairyLights · 06/10/2025 20:35

Horsehow · 06/10/2025 20:32

And also virtually every other country in the world massively prioritises their own citizens for medical training posts. Can’t get a job in your home country? Apply to the UK. It’s not like other graduate jobs where overseas candidates have the world the choose from, they have their country, the UK and very few other offers.

Show quote history

Completely agree. Why has the UK become the specialist medical training academy of the world?

Original poster

Horsehow · 06/10/2025 20:32

PurpleFairyLights · 06/10/2025 20:07

Because doctors only have one employer and government have invested 250k in their training

Show quote history

And also virtually every other country in the world massively prioritises their own citizens for medical training posts. Can’t get a job in your home country? Apply to the UK. It’s not like other graduate jobs where overseas candidates have the world the choose from, they have their country, the UK and very few other offers.

OP posts:

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 06/10/2025 20:31

mumsneedwine · 06/10/2025 20:21

@SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice hopefully we have helped show you the issue. So many applicants for so few jobs. 13,000 speciality posts, 12,000 UKGs. Should be easy. Yet we have unemployed GPs and F2s. Whilst waiting lists are 7 million +.

I always thought Wes Streeting must be on drugs to think he can cut NHS jobs.

PurpleFairyLights · 06/10/2025 20:30

Janesmom · 06/10/2025 20:27

Why should UK/EU candidates get preferential treatment at all? Just as I’m happy to compete against the best globally in my profession (and prepared to move overseas if needed), I’m also very happy the UK can still recruit world-class doctors from across the globe.

Show quote history

Sorry this must be a joke.@mumsneedwine nightshift.

PurpleFairyLights · 06/10/2025 20:27

There are 93 countries that protect their own medical graduates. The UK is the outlier since January 2021

Janesmom · 06/10/2025 20:27

Eyewhisker · 06/10/2025 20:04

Actually, I think the same should apply for all graduates as it did before Boris Johnson. It used to be firms could only hire non-EU candidates when there were no suitable UK applicants.

Now, everyone from around the world can apply and there is an unemployment crisis among UK graduates. No shit sherlock.

It is worse among medical students as there is a sole employer but the same does apply to other jobs.

Show quote history

Why should UK/EU candidates get preferential treatment at all? Just as I’m happy to compete against the best globally in my profession (and prepared to move overseas if needed), I’m also very happy the UK can still recruit world-class doctors from across the globe.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 06/10/2025 20:26

PurpleFairyLights · 06/10/2025 20:19

The job market is dreadful for all graduates thanks to The Boris Wave.

This is fuelling a lot of unrest and concerned about the future

Show quote history

I think some of the bad job market is due to automation replacing a lot of jobs.
Like think who will be out of work when the NHS App does all the appointment letters?

TeenLifeMum · 06/10/2025 20:26

mumsneedwine · 06/10/2025 20:17

@Marbles10 it's ridiculous. How anyone can think it's not a problem is beyond me

I bet 90% are AI bollocks too.

The crazy thing is we can’t find specialists and are struggling to recruit so I don’t understand where the disconnect is.

Stompythedinosaur · 06/10/2025 20:26

I absolutely support their right to campaign for fair pay and treatment.

They wouldn't have to strike if the government negotiated.

PurpleFairyLights · 06/10/2025 20:26

TeenLifeMum · 06/10/2025 20:24

This isn’t true!

starting salary for an F1 is £38,831 basic which is £19 an hour. They then get extra for out of hours and can pick up extra bank shifts at higher rates. I would assume the £17.33 is in addition so almost double time for Christmas Day - but my hospital pays more than that. There is a rate card but many hospitals pay different to that due to retention needs.
F2 gets £44,439 basic pay and it jumps up each year. F1s are first years so are very much learning and the pay reflects that.

The lack of training positions is a massive issue though, so I agree that needs sorting.

Show quote history

It is not the lack of training places that is the problem. It is the amount of IMGs applying for Specialty Training.

PurpleFairyLights · 06/10/2025 20:24

mumsneedwine · 06/10/2025 20:21

@SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice hopefully we have helped show you the issue. So many applicants for so few jobs. 13,000 speciality posts, 12,000 UKGs. Should be easy. Yet we have unemployed GPs and F2s. Whilst waiting lists are 7 million +.

And around 20000 IMGs applying as well

TeenLifeMum · 06/10/2025 20:24

mumsneedwine · 06/10/2025 18:52

Blue line= number of jobs. Yellow =number of applicants. Doctors are paid £17.33 an hour at 2am on Xmas day. They earn more in Scotland and now Wales.

This isn’t true!

starting salary for an F1 is £38,831 basic which is £19 an hour. They then get extra for out of hours and can pick up extra bank shifts at higher rates. I would assume the £17.33 is in addition so almost double time for Christmas Day - but my hospital pays more than that. There is a rate card but many hospitals pay different to that due to retention needs.
F2 gets £44,439 basic pay and it jumps up each year. F1s are first years so are very much learning and the pay reflects that.

The lack of training positions is a massive issue though, so I agree that needs sorting.

mumsneedwine · 06/10/2025 20:21

@SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice hopefully we have helped show you the issue. So many applicants for so few jobs. 13,000 speciality posts, 12,000 UKGs. Should be easy. Yet we have unemployed GPs and F2s. Whilst waiting lists are 7 million +.

PurpleFairyLights · 06/10/2025 20:19

Eyewhisker · 06/10/2025 20:04

Actually, I think the same should apply for all graduates as it did before Boris Johnson. It used to be firms could only hire non-EU candidates when there were no suitable UK applicants.

Now, everyone from around the world can apply and there is an unemployment crisis among UK graduates. No shit sherlock.

It is worse among medical students as there is a sole employer but the same does apply to other jobs.

Show quote history

The job market is dreadful for all graduates thanks to The Boris Wave.

This is fuelling a lot of unrest and concerned about the future

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 06/10/2025 20:19

mumsneedwine · 06/10/2025 20:11

Its almost like we know what we are talking about. Spent the past 12 months lobbying hard.

Show quote history

I’m sure you do. That’s why I’m asking questions :)
I haven’t made up my mind on the strikes and want to know why there is a shortage of jobs when the NHS obviously needs more doctors to meet the demand.

mumsneedwine · 06/10/2025 20:17

@Marbles10 it's ridiculous. How anyone can think it's not a problem is beyond me

To finally agree with a junior doctors strike

PurpleFairyLights · 06/10/2025 20:17

mumsneedwine · 06/10/2025 20:10

@SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice no. Said nothing about any charge. I said they had equal priority to get any job as a doctor.

IMGs have an advantage over F2s that have been doctors less than 2 years..

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 06/10/2025 20:17

mumsneedwine · 06/10/2025 20:13

Doctors can not work privately until consultants. So 6-10 years post qualifying.

Edited

Show quote history

Not even GPs?

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 06/10/2025 20:16

mumsneedwine · 06/10/2025 20:10

@SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice no. Said nothing about any charge. I said they had equal priority to get any job as a doctor.

Ok, then I misunderstood your post directed @ me that said
nope. They've not applied for years. Everyone who applies, from anywhere in the world, gets same priority. Silly isn't it ?

I thought the first sentence referred back to my question saying the ISC would still apply…

”This just shows applicants, not job offers or success rates ?
Where is the evidence that UK applicants are not given priority?
Wouldn’t the immigration skills charge apply?
https://www.davidsonmorris.com/immigration-skills-charge/”

And then you said DavidsonMorris should lose his job, I thought you knew that link was about the ISC not priority in hiring decisions…

total failure to communicate here 😅

Immigration Skills Charge Guide 2025 | DavidsonMorris

Essential guide to the UK Immigration Skills Charge for employers on costs, exemptions and compliance when sponsoring overseas workers in 2025.

https://www.davidsonmorris.com/immigration-skills-charge/

Marbles10 · 06/10/2025 20:16

From the BMJ last month - don’t know a single doctor that doesn’t think this is a problem (and I know a lot of them)

“Staggering” competition for some NHS specialty training posts has laid bare a “crisis facing medical training” that is leaving many resident doctors “in limbo,” leaders have warned.
Doctors said that newly released NHS statistics on 2025 competition rates—which show that demand for some specialties has almost quadrupled—were “indicative of a broken application system.”
The data show that a total of 91 999 applications were made in England for the 12 833 specialty training posts available at all training levels,1 giving an overall competition ratio of 7. This means that there were seven applications overall for every specialty training post in 2025, a rise from 4.7 last year2 and over three times the level in 2019 (1.9).
However, some specialties have faced competition of a far greater magnitude. For example, psychiatry saw 22 applications for every post (10 677 applications for 489 posts), up from 10 applications per post last year.

PurpleFairyLights · 06/10/2025 20:15

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

mumsneedwine · 06/10/2025 20:13

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 06/10/2025 20:07

I thought the private sector was also hiring doctors? Especially for GPs.

(GPs are all privatised)

Show quote history

Doctors can not work privately until consultants. So 6-10 years post qualifying.