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Original poster

To finally agree with a junior doctors strike

896 replies

Horsehow · 06/10/2025 18:20

Junior doctors have decided to strike as they are being overlooked for jobs / training posts which are instead given to international applicants. I’ve always abhorred their money grabbing strikes in the past, but support this one 100%. UK doctors should be recruited where possible, and international graduates only turned to where we cannot find a suitable recruit in the UK.

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PeonyPatch · 13/10/2025 20:33

Sorry what does IMG mean?

PeonyPatch · 13/10/2025 20:32

PurpleFairyLights · 13/10/2025 20:16

There is something very off about all of this

In what sense?

PurpleFairyLights · 13/10/2025 20:16

There is something very off about all of this

mumsneedwine · 13/10/2025 15:07

Why are people fighting this so hard ? The facts are out there. UK trained and paid for staff are unemployed. We are employing IMGS from some red list counties instead. This is silly, a waste of tax payers money and slightly immoral. Young people who trained here took on debt assuming they'd have a job. And these people come from all countries but chose to study and train in the UK.

Why would anyone not think fully trained, highly competent UK doctors shouldn't get priority for jobs ? All v strange, I always think you need to follow the 💰 when things look weird.

PurpleFairyLights · 13/10/2025 14:17

Marchesman · 13/10/2025 13:51

Evidently not.

This is (part of) fig. 22 "Doctors joining the UK workforce, by route to joining, 2012–2023" from the GMC workforce report for 2024 (https://www.gmc-uk.org/-/media/documents/somep-workforce-report-2024-full-report_pdf-109169408.pdf). ; and it shows that increasing numbers of IMGs have had no effect on the number of UK medical graduates entering the workforce.

As you are familiar with this document you will also know that the number of UK graduates entering the workforce is already four or five times greater than the number of doctors retiring each year, so that most will eventually be obliged to find a different line of work.

(You will also know, despite your incessant complaint that IMGs have stolen their jobs, that more than half of F2 doctors do not apply to core or specialty training at the end of F2.)

Page 5 - 68% of doctors joining GMC register in 2023 were IMGs....

Marchesman · 13/10/2025 13:51

Evidently not.

This is (part of) fig. 22 "Doctors joining the UK workforce, by route to joining, 2012–2023" from the GMC workforce report for 2024 (https://www.gmc-uk.org/-/media/documents/somep-workforce-report-2024-full-report_pdf-109169408.pdf). ; and it shows that increasing numbers of IMGs have had no effect on the number of UK medical graduates entering the workforce.

As you are familiar with this document you will also know that the number of UK graduates entering the workforce is already four or five times greater than the number of doctors retiring each year, so that most will eventually be obliged to find a different line of work.

(You will also know, despite your incessant complaint that IMGs have stolen their jobs, that more than half of F2 doctors do not apply to core or specialty training at the end of F2.)

PurpleFairyLights · 13/10/2025 08:19

The data may be easier to understand in this format

To finally agree with a junior doctors strike
PurpleFairyLights · 13/10/2025 08:17

mumsneedwine · 13/10/2025 08:10

Because the 'explanations' offered are wrong. Every time. Competition ratios are published. Number of IMGs are published (above 55% for all specialities this year). Doctors unemployed ? Government don't want to publish those figures, so they are currently being collated by others so they can be published asap.
Not sure how anyone can't see the issue of having vast numbers of UKGs employed. Weird. As always.

The bias towards IMGs and the lack of respect for UKMGs is a concern.

mumsneedwine · 13/10/2025 08:10

Because the 'explanations' offered are wrong. Every time. Competition ratios are published. Number of IMGs are published (above 55% for all specialities this year). Doctors unemployed ? Government don't want to publish those figures, so they are currently being collated by others so they can be published asap.
Not sure how anyone can't see the issue of having vast numbers of UKGs employed. Weird. As always.

Sevillian · 12/10/2025 23:27

mumsneedwine the headline figures that you’ve been selectively quoting since the early part of the year have been deconstructed so many times that it’s quite mesmerising that you haven’t yet managed to take any of the explanations in.

PurpleFairyLights · 12/10/2025 18:07

mumsneedwine · 12/10/2025 17:04

They are NHSE figures. Whose would you like to quote.

Unfortunately, the figures are so shocking that some cannot believe they are true. People denying the statistics should read the room. The numbers are unsustainable and will cause problems.

In fact, Tom Swarbrick on LBC covered this and was shocked that 63% of applicants for specialty training were IMGs while we have unemployed UKMGs.

mumsneedwine · 12/10/2025 17:04

They are NHSE figures. Whose would you like to quote.

Sevillian · 12/10/2025 15:47

Well given how often the numbers on these photoshots have been demolished in terms of having the meaning asserted, I wouldn’t be that confident.

A light scratch of the surface and they all seem to collapse.

PurpleFairyLights · 12/10/2025 14:29

This is not a meaningless survey.

To finally agree with a junior doctors strike
Sevillian · 12/10/2025 12:31

mumsneedwine · 10/10/2025 22:16

From the BMA

No doubt another meaningless survey from a ludicrously small sample alongside other flaws in the methodology.

mumsneedwine · 10/10/2025 22:16

From the BMA

To finally agree with a junior doctors strike
stuffedpeppers · 10/10/2025 20:51

All the trainees in my speciality who have started as ST3 are UK graduates - this is not an isolated occurrence. have they all progressed from ST2 - no but that is not necessarily wrong.

stuffedpeppers · 10/10/2025 20:49

There is no evidence that 52% of FY2s are not in work - significant numbers did not apply for a further training post. No one is saying they are incompetent but you do ahve to apply to have a chance and success or rejection.

Purple - i have seen many ST1/2s with good reference and ticked the boxes but does not always mean they are ready to progress in so many of the NOTS aspects of assessment. I am sure your son will progress and his extra year will actually be of benefit to him when he does and he will find the progression much less stressful.

There is so much mixing of stats and extrapolating to fit grievances by people here.

PurpleFairyLights · 10/10/2025 18:05

mumsneedwine · 10/10/2025 17:53

Back to the argument that UKGs don't get jobs because they are not competent. So 52% of F2s this year were apparently incompetent. Really don't understand why consultants are not demanding change then.
Obviously this is not why they are not getting jobs. It's the insane number of people applying.

Exactly. Beggers belief that anyone cannot see this for themselves.

mumsneedwine · 10/10/2025 17:53

Back to the argument that UKGs don't get jobs because they are not competent. So 52% of F2s this year were apparently incompetent. Really don't understand why consultants are not demanding change then.
Obviously this is not why they are not getting jobs. It's the insane number of people applying.

Sevillian · 10/10/2025 15:58

Marbles10 · 10/10/2025 11:32

Thank you for posting a link to that study @Marchesman , it was an interesting read and I appreciate you taking the time to share it. I wasn’t surprised by the complex causal nexus for half the measures studied, but a couple of surprising observations were:
-schools producing more GP trainees have poorer performance at MRCGP exams schools - not sure what’s going on there (and the authors seemed equally perplexed!)
-more GMC sanctions occurring at schools with higher historical proportions of male graduates (my surprise was that the difference was significant enough to be noteworthy).

However, I didn’t ask a specific question on standards per se - my question to @Sevillian was if they were inferring that it was a deliberate sifting due to deteriorating quality that was causing the current issues under discussion. They replied that they went beyond that, which I took to be a yes. However, I did not see any evidence in the paper that the cohort facing competition this year were of any less quality than those back in 2019, when ratios were significantly less. Especially as the paper tracks outputs between 1990 and 2009, but doesn’t include any temporal analysis that could be extrapolated forward.

Marbles I see that Marchesman has answered your question. As I said twice before, these things are entirely separate with no necessary causal link between decline in standards and the success rate for training posts.

Nearly50omg · 10/10/2025 15:28

Goldengirl123 · 06/10/2025 18:56

I work in a GP surgery and I cannot believe they only get paid £14 ph!

Are they owners/partners in the business though? So they will be also getting a % of the profits

PurpleFairyLights · 10/10/2025 15:17

isitmyturn · 10/10/2025 13:30

I could only find one in 2024 that was ratio 2/1 and that was Max fax which I believe needs a dentistry degree?
None for 2025 at ST1?

Show quote history

Yes max fax needs medical and dentistry degree

PurpleFairyLights · 10/10/2025 15:16

stuffedpeppers · 10/10/2025 14:10

And Purples DS should be an ST3, but IMGs got more places than UKGs. If he's not a competent ST3 then that's the fault of the seniors.

How do you know more IMGS got the places
Why should he have a job against
Why is him potentially not being a competent ST3 the fault of his seniors - some people just do not have the co ordination to be a surgeon, mindset etc - not the fault of the seniors in anyway.

Such sweeping statements really do display your ignorance of what it takes to train someone from FY1 to ST8

I am not ignorant of the system at all. Your assumptions are wrong.