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To be furious that the Machester synagogue attacker was let out on bail for a rape charge?

30 replies

PrincessSophieFrederike · 05/10/2025 01:24

Why??? Firstly, why are accused rapists allowed to be let out on bail which might conceivably allow them to reoffend (assuming they're guilty)?

I don't know if the police missed signs of radicalisation or had him on their radar. But even if there had been no such signs, why allow accused rapists out on bail?

If only he'd not been out on bail, there would've been no attack.

More broadly- what on earth is wrong with our police? Otoh they're waving trans flags, standing by while TRAs intimidate GC women & allowing Pro-Palestine protectors to shout anti Semitic slogans (not all IK but way too many)

Otoh they're apparently indifferent to attacks on women (and some are themselves committing them), tolerate prejudice against ethnic minorities, gay people & the disabled and behave sadistically to suspects.

Where did the force go so wrong & how can we improve it?

I know many police officers are good, courageous people, I have a lot of respect for those. But there seem to be far too many who are the opposite. As the saying goes, a few bad apples spoil the whole barrel...

OP posts:
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persephonia · 05/10/2025 02:47

I'm also suspicious the makers of LHRH medications are looking for a other market to flog their drugs to. But that might be me getting to tinfoilhatty.

persephonia · 05/10/2025 02:44

PrincessSophieFrederike · 05/10/2025 02:28

I agree emotionally...I do think lowered/zero libido would presumably make the desire to offend much less likely but I certainly wouldn't want any kids of mine to be near them...

My issue with chemical castration is that human rights should apply to even the worst people, and I do think letting the government mandate something physical like that is a slippery slope potentially. I'm pretty torn on I though...

Some countries have had more positive results.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3565125/

Edited

I guess if you cant force people to be castrated, you have to offer an incentive. Eg earlier release in exchange for chemical castration. But then that means they have the opportunity to reoffend which goes back to the point about not wanting my own children around them...

PrincessSophieFrederike · 05/10/2025 02:28

persephonia · 05/10/2025 02:24

My position is I don't really care if someone who abused children is chemically castrated. Im not about to feel sorry for them. But i still wouldn't want them any where near my children. I don't think it makes them "safe".

I agree emotionally...I do think lowered/zero libido would presumably make the desire to offend much less likely but I certainly wouldn't want any kids of mine to be near them...

My issue with chemical castration is that human rights should apply to even the worst people, and I do think letting the government mandate something physical like that is a slippery slope potentially. I'm pretty torn on I though...

Some countries have had more positive results.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3565125/

OP posts:
persephonia · 05/10/2025 02:24

PrincessSophieFrederike · 05/10/2025 02:12

I do agree somewhat but there does seem to be some evidence it works.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.bbc.com/news/articles/crmkv3jezzdo%23:~:text%3DA%25202022%2520pilot%2520extended%2520the,someone%2520who%2520does%2520to%2520compare.&ved=2ahUKEwip5q2u7ouQAxX2WEEAHWWZLyYQzsoNegQIExAm&usg=AOvVaw0H2wyd9ErH2FFuhWPabNjo

Imo sexual offences are about both control & sex. You can't really separate them : there's obviously a sexual element if the attacker is aroused (sorry) but at the same time their sexuality is twisted & peverted so they can only feel that way by assaulting someone & exerting control over them.

My position is I don't really care if someone who abused children is chemically castrated. Im not about to feel sorry for them. But i still wouldn't want them any where near my children. I don't think it makes them "safe".

PrincessSophieFrederike · 05/10/2025 02:12

BuffetTheDietSlayer · 05/10/2025 01:55

I believe some studies have shown that abusers given chemical casteration turn to other methods of abuse. No idea how valid they are but it makes sense when you think of sexual abuse as a violent crime not actually about sex iykwim.

I do agree somewhat but there does seem to be some evidence it works.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.bbc.com/news/articles/crmkv3jezzdo%23:~:text%3DA%25202022%2520pilot%2520extended%2520the,someone%2520who%2520does%2520to%2520compare.&ved=2ahUKEwip5q2u7ouQAxX2WEEAHWWZLyYQzsoNegQIExAm&usg=AOvVaw0H2wyd9ErH2FFuhWPabNjo

Imo sexual offences are about both control & sex. You can't really separate them : there's obviously a sexual element if the attacker is aroused (sorry) but at the same time their sexuality is twisted & peverted so they can only feel that way by assaulting someone & exerting control over them.

https://www.google.com/url?opi=89978449&rct=j&sa=t&source=web&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Farticles%2Fcrmkv3jezzdo%23%3A%7E%3Atext%3DA%25202022%2520pilot%2520extended%2520the%2Csomeone%2520who%2520does%2520to%2520compare.&usg=AOvVaw0H2wyd9ErH2FFuhWPabNjo&ved=2ahUKEwip5q2u7ouQAxX2WEEAHWWZLyYQzsoNegQIExAm

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LoftyRobin · 05/10/2025 02:04

So one stat I found is that 31% of Islamic terrorists in the US had any criminal record. Of those, 64% were for a violent crime.

See this is what I thought re terrorists. Most do not have much of a prior criminal history. Especially for violent crime. That is terrorists overall.

LoftyRobin · 05/10/2025 01:57

MrsTerryPratchett · 05/10/2025 01:47

<sigh> I’ll Google that for you, even though it’s pretty well documented and observable.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1359178925000242

This is from a self reported survey. You said:

"Almost always there’s a DV charge in there somewhere."

Which suggests most terrorists have been arrested for DV which is a different thing to what this study looked at.

BuffetTheDietSlayer · 05/10/2025 01:55

PrincessSophieFrederike · 05/10/2025 01:46

I agree totally. I live near a category 2 men's prison (it's a nice quiet area apart from the odd breakout!)and the disorder & overcrowding is reportedly terrible there.

At least the government is trying to reduce women in prison who are not dangerous. The book Prisonomics recommended this a long time ago & it will go some way to making space...

I suspect this is why Shabana Mahmood is pushing for mandatory chemical castration of child abusers. I think mandatory castration is potentially a slippery slope & it wouldn't fix everyone, but I guess it could help...

I believe some studies have shown that abusers given chemical casteration turn to other methods of abuse. No idea how valid they are but it makes sense when you think of sexual abuse as a violent crime not actually about sex iykwim.

PrincessSophieFrederike · 05/10/2025 01:52

persephonia · 05/10/2025 01:50

The percentage of rape cases that actually lead to a conviction is tiny as it is

There is so much that could be done to better support women. The problem is, there is already a very unpleasant backlash to increased awareness of sexual violence. You only need to spend a short while on social media to find out that apparently just one word from a woman can ruim a man's life forever, that men are afraid of even interacting with women lest they be falsely accused. All nonsense. Especially when you look at the actual statistics or case studies where men are accused (hint. Their lives are not usually ruined). However, if you kept men in prison between their arrest and their trial you could be looking at imprisoning men for up to 2 years. With the majority of those men not being found guilty (because early on CPS decides not to press charges all the way up to them being found innocent at trial). I think that would spark an even bigger backlash from the MRA types. Also, there are cases where I think men were genuinely not guilty (as opposed to not being found guilty). Keeping them in prison would have been a breach of their rights.

I would rather there was more awareness that actually, men who commit DV or rape are overall bad men. They aren't otherwise decent sorts who have a flaw. There's a huge overlap between terrorism and abuse of women that there should be more awareness of rather than compartmentalizing as some are wont to do.

Good point about waiting for trial. I know case backlog is very bad.

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persephonia · 05/10/2025 01:51

MrsTerryPratchett · 05/10/2025 01:41

It is very rare that terrorists don’t start with violence against women. Almost always there’s a DV charge in there somewhere.

Because angry hateful men are angry and hateful.

If we took all VAWG seriously, we’d catch and lock up most terrorists. But VAWG isn’t seen as serious.

I wrote my post before I read yours. You say it much more succinctly.

persephonia · 05/10/2025 01:50

The percentage of rape cases that actually lead to a conviction is tiny as it is

There is so much that could be done to better support women. The problem is, there is already a very unpleasant backlash to increased awareness of sexual violence. You only need to spend a short while on social media to find out that apparently just one word from a woman can ruim a man's life forever, that men are afraid of even interacting with women lest they be falsely accused. All nonsense. Especially when you look at the actual statistics or case studies where men are accused (hint. Their lives are not usually ruined). However, if you kept men in prison between their arrest and their trial you could be looking at imprisoning men for up to 2 years. With the majority of those men not being found guilty (because early on CPS decides not to press charges all the way up to them being found innocent at trial). I think that would spark an even bigger backlash from the MRA types. Also, there are cases where I think men were genuinely not guilty (as opposed to not being found guilty). Keeping them in prison would have been a breach of their rights.

I would rather there was more awareness that actually, men who commit DV or rape are overall bad men. They aren't otherwise decent sorts who have a flaw. There's a huge overlap between terrorism and abuse of women that there should be more awareness of rather than compartmentalizing as some are wont to do.

MrsTerryPratchett · 05/10/2025 01:47

https://time.com/6553509/misogyny-precursor-terrorism-essay/

PrincessSophieFrederike · 05/10/2025 01:47

MrsTerryPratchett · 05/10/2025 01:41

It is very rare that terrorists don’t start with violence against women. Almost always there’s a DV charge in there somewhere.

Because angry hateful men are angry and hateful.

If we took all VAWG seriously, we’d catch and lock up most terrorists. But VAWG isn’t seen as serious.

👏 👏

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MrsTerryPratchett · 05/10/2025 01:47

LoftyRobin · 05/10/2025 01:43

Do you have statistics on that?

<sigh> I’ll Google that for you, even though it’s pretty well documented and observable.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1359178925000242

PrincessSophieFrederike · 05/10/2025 01:46

BuffetTheDietSlayer · 05/10/2025 01:31

They’re probably let out because prisons are over crowded and rape cases can take years to reach trial.

I have no idea why we can’t just build more prisons. It would help the economy by creating jobs etc, take criminals off the streets.

I agree totally. I live near a category 2 men's prison (it's a nice quiet area apart from the odd breakout!)and the disorder & overcrowding is reportedly terrible there.

At least the government is trying to reduce women in prison who are not dangerous. The book Prisonomics recommended this a long time ago & it will go some way to making space...

I suspect this is why Shabana Mahmood is pushing for mandatory chemical castration of child abusers. I think mandatory castration is potentially a slippery slope & it wouldn't fix everyone, but I guess it could help...

OP posts:
LoftyRobin · 05/10/2025 01:44

BuffetTheDietSlayer · 05/10/2025 01:43

I have no idea. It’s an idea of what can be done, that I formulated in about 2 mins whilst finishing my glass of wine.

Ah makes sense.

BuffetTheDietSlayer · 05/10/2025 01:43

LoftyRobin · 05/10/2025 01:41

Is this the same prison system desperately recruiting for staff in its existing institutions? Or another one?

I have no idea. It’s an idea of what can be done, that I formulated in about 2 mins whilst finishing my glass of wine.

LoftyRobin · 05/10/2025 01:43

MrsTerryPratchett · 05/10/2025 01:41

It is very rare that terrorists don’t start with violence against women. Almost always there’s a DV charge in there somewhere.

Because angry hateful men are angry and hateful.

If we took all VAWG seriously, we’d catch and lock up most terrorists. But VAWG isn’t seen as serious.

Do you have statistics on that?

LoftyRobin · 05/10/2025 01:41

BuffetTheDietSlayer · 05/10/2025 01:40

As long as the island is accessible from the mainland in a shortish time it shouldn’t be a problem to get staff. There are commuters and children that take boat rides every day to school/ work in the UK and around the world. It can be done, if the will is there.

Is this the same prison system desperately recruiting for staff in its existing institutions? Or another one?

MrsTerryPratchett · 05/10/2025 01:41

It is very rare that terrorists don’t start with violence against women. Almost always there’s a DV charge in there somewhere.

Because angry hateful men are angry and hateful.

If we took all VAWG seriously, we’d catch and lock up most terrorists. But VAWG isn’t seen as serious.

BuffetTheDietSlayer · 05/10/2025 01:40

LoftyRobin · 05/10/2025 01:36

Who would work on those barely inhabited islands?

As long as the island is accessible from the mainland in a shortish time it shouldn’t be a problem to get staff. There are commuters and children that take boat rides every day to school/ work in the UK and around the world. It can be done, if the will is there.

LoftyRobin · 05/10/2025 01:36

BuffetTheDietSlayer · 05/10/2025 01:35

There’s more than enough space to build more prisons. Could even build some on those barely inhabited islands. Or tower block style prisons.

Who would work on those barely inhabited islands?

BuffetTheDietSlayer · 05/10/2025 01:35

LoftyRobin · 05/10/2025 01:33

Because we need houses?

There’s more than enough space to build more prisons. Could even build some on those barely inhabited islands. Or tower block style prisons.

LoftyRobin · 05/10/2025 01:33

BuffetTheDietSlayer · 05/10/2025 01:31

They’re probably let out because prisons are over crowded and rape cases can take years to reach trial.

I have no idea why we can’t just build more prisons. It would help the economy by creating jobs etc, take criminals off the streets.

Because we need houses?

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