To feel a bit bad for the met police on bbc panorama undercover

I don’t think it will ever be rid of it. No police force will. The Met is only different to the dozens of other police forces around the country bc of its size and ‘importance’ of its location.

Like the fact teachers have this false image of being robotic humanoids who’s first interest is always other ppls children despite being in a job that sees them working long hours when they come home and at weekends and holidays, high levels of stress, workplace bullying, abuse from parents and students… people are shocked that they are actually regular people capable of feeling and doing all sorts of things that fall beneath the high levels of moral code that are placed upon them. The same applies to doctors, nurses, any industry who are primarily dealing with the vulnerable and in ‘respectable’ and caring positions as well as those in authority.

I’m staggered that ppl still assume that the people who make up the majority of police forces are these whiter than white (in terms of morals) figures whose prime motivation is pure benevolence and self-sacrificial service to others. Some are. The majority are drawn from the same demographic which makes up the majority of Tommy Robinson supporters. Why is this so hard to connect?

I’m not saying that all white men from working class/lower income backgrounds are inherently racist, misogynistic homophobes, or that those from upper middle classes are all virtuous saints, but the assumption that they are somehow these model citizens who only want to do good in the world just by virtue of joining this institution and somehow only get corrupted by the few ‘bad apples’ once they are part of it is so naive it’s laughable. They were always racist, misogynistic homophobes. They were hardly going to formally announce this at interview. And to be honest, with the deficit of serving officers out there, in a job many would not touch with a barge pole for numerous reasons, I’m sure many are suspected as being such, but allowed through the gate as long as they don’t get their true persona stamped on their forehead, so the forces can at least maintain the facade of being respectable and not inherently corrupt. As long as they have boots on the ground I’m sure they don’t ultimately care, until it’s signposted in neon for the whole world to see courtesy of Panorama.

Men like this work in all industries, not just the police, why is it surprising they feature in the Met? Particularly when we know professions of authority - like teaching and politics, can and do attract narcissistic bullies who thrive on power over others and will abuse their position if allowed to do so. If they weren’t in the police they’d be in factories, garages, hospitality, supermarkets, building sites - not waiting un-boxed in some factory that mass produces unblemished new recruits. The majority aren’t university graduates, they’re ordinary working people, and often view joining the police as a job that pays reasonably well, is pretty secure, demands a certain level of respect and due to its very challenging nature is crying out for ppl to sign up. It’s not always a vocational calling no matter what we’d prefer to believe. They are just people at the end of the day, not superheroes, and the same goes for everyone across all roles. There is no sphere that does not have evil arseholes within it - look at the charity workers that were exposed a few years ago for sexual exploitation and paedophilia fgs!

As long as ppl hate or fear other ppl there will always be ppl like this in roles we’d rather they weren’t in. You can’t read other minds and know the dark thoughts ppl are capable of harbouring, but allowing an environment where they feel comfortable and safe enough to disclose them openly is unacceptable and can be dealt with. Why the hell isn’t it?

I’m a nurse and would expect to be hauled in front of the Nursing and Midwifery Council if I engaged in unprofessional behaviour, that includes breaching confidentiality in an ‘off duty setting’.

This ‘banter’ isn’t just harmless, it helps to spread and normalise misogynistic and racist views. Unfortunately these people are in a position of power and despite numerous attempts to stamp it out it still persists. If they need filming undercover then so be it!

Hmm, OK...some of the stuff was clearly over the line though, the treatment of the pregnant woman or the sexual comments at WORK, not the pub.

So 'telling the truth'? The same conversations are going on 'everywhere'?

About that 17yo autistic boy?

About the pregnant woman brutally kicked in the stomach?

The sexual comments at work that made the female officer really uncomfortable?

Never had those kind of convos myself, thankfully...

Some people need to be exposed to realise what they have become. That sergeant, the guy making constant unwarranted sexual comments - I hope he watches this back and sees how seedy and inappropriate it was, and feels ashamed.

What happened? I do think there were always MP's who got involved bc they were posh & it was the done thing, or other reasons, but yes, before many seemed to be more motivated.

Anecdotally, distrust of the police does seem to have been longer running, though probs not to the same extent.

( I'd love to have seen Boris, Truss, Corbyn etc's psychometric results!)

Yes, I was just thinking about this a bit further.

I think although unconscious bias is inevitable, it’s not inevitable to have people who are racist, sexist, homophobic etc.

It’s less the fact that everyone has some natural bias, but more the fact that there are people in positions of power with views that should have been left in the 1970s.

For example, I’m autistic so I might unconsciously have more empathy towards another autistic person and their difficulties, but it doesn’t mean that I automatically assume all neurotypical people are bad or in the wrong. That kind of blanket prejudice and unconscious bias is what causes real harm, in various ways.

Well that would be an excellent idea!!

I think with MPs we see a real divergence - some really clearly get involved as they’re passionate about helping and making a difference but others, not so much.

Even although I might not have agreed with their policies, MPs used to be made up of people who were motivated for the right reasons. Same as the police. And not so much now for either group unfortunately.

You have better expectations to me. This is not new. This is not just the Met.

Inappropriate but the same conversations that are going on in every workplace, office, home and pub. The media pixel out the faces of the Pakistani grooming rapists yet none of these police get the same privacy. What have they done e wrong?? Is t this what we are all fighting for- FREEDOM OF SPEECH?? Yes mention Sarah Everard- that was one or two vile policemen- that’s not what has happened here. They were letting off steam AND telling the truth in some of their opinions of the types they have to deal with on a daily basis. Who would do their horrible job today? I can’t help feeling that they were deliberately and very slyly filmed in a honey trap situation where the recorder deliberately enticed them or egged them on to discuss race relations etc. Very dishonest and frankly very disturbing that these hard working police have been compromised in this way.

Thats the issue isn't it? Every human (hell even AI) has unconcious bias.

So it is impossible to eliminate it, therefore you have to accept the risk and have controls such as reports and witnesses and whistleblower policies to manage that risk.

It wouldn't matter how many wines you gave me (ex nurse) because I don't think that way, so I wouldn't say it. People only say things that they think. They shouldn't be thinking that way.

I think it is reasonable that people exposed to the level of daily abuse that the police endure, woudl have developed less than palatable coping mechanisms.

An investigation into these officers is warrented to see if any of these thoughts that they had out loud effected their behaviour towards people that put them at risk, but given the fact I have worked in healthcare with difficult patients I certainaly think that it is a reaction that is within the range of normal.

I agree that there needs to be better coping tools, and a more supportive culture to manage daily exposure to PTSD inducing events, but I am not going to judge someone I don't know, when they have a confronting job, in a difficult cuture and are being filmed secretly. Given the recent revelations about the BBC I am surprised that they are not taking a more neutral and compassionate view.

The most dangerous people are the ones that thinks that they would never do anything to hurt anyone else in any circumstance.

There’s more to it than demonstrable harm though. And although someone might believe that they are always professional, there’s a very good chance an unconscious bias will have an impact on the decisions they make and how they treat people, even if they’re not aware of it.

That’s why it’s such a problem to have people with such unpleasant and in some cases, extreme, views in a position of power.

Prejudice inevitably shows, even if the person thinks they’re keeping it under wraps.

Talking of psychometric testing, I've always thought MPs should have to have this. There was a petition a while ago but unsurprisingly Parliament rejected it.

So you think what they said was normal within the context of their work? I sincerely doubt that most people react that way or find that is the best way to decompress. If anything this show highlights the need for officers to have some more formal yet confidential way of offloading this stuff.

I think you’re right, there will always be that risk.

I don’t know how they recruit or what psychometric testing they do. I think they’ve been so desperate for new recruits, probably not that much!

The trouble is currently, new recruits join and immediately are plunged into the culture which undoubtedly influences them.

If the damaged culture wasn’t already there, you might be able to prevent new recruits from being corrupted by it.

But I think for sure part of the problem is the type of people it attracts. Even more so at the moment. Plenty of people wouldn’t consider a career in the police right now because it’s got such a poor reputation. It’s a vicious circle.

I completely agree with this. It would be too difficult to manage, especially as we know that a certain percentage of the police will always have a hero/god complex.

Yes, look at what the US is like.

I think this is only relevant if their comments translated to demonstrable harm when doing their jobs. I think all sorts of awful things about different groups of people, if I was in a group of like minded people I might even say or join in, but I don't act on them. Its called being a professional.

The issue in this case is that now the public know who they are, and it diminishes their ability to do their job- as they have to have a trustworthy reputation. How fair that is I am still in two minds.

I would also be starting an investigation how the journalist got through the vetting etc.

I am guessing the original post?

I see, thank you. Tbf 81% of the UK is white, not 90%, but I get your meaning.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/uk-population-by-ethnicity/national-and-regional-populations/population-of-england-and-wales/latest&ved=2ahUKEwiNltW5tISQAxUVWUEAHS9nMo4Qr-IDegQIExAD&usg=AOvVaw2GnAYsJ9N_XEFnstAvKMHu

Even if we did a full clear out, is it inevitable that such people will often be attracted to it?

I am confused are you asking me or telling me?

A persons skin colour/race is a low hanging fruit in a confrontation. In a conflict you have to be able to identify a reason as to why they "aren't like you" to justify why you should fight them or resist them.

When you are in fight/flight/freeze you lose the ability to think things through becuasuse you are focused on ending the situation you are in. Therefore you can't be expected to think rationally.

So in short, white people can be racially abused. It's a lower probability in the UK because 90% of the population is white, so they will use which ever football team you support instead or your accent etc..

I sort of see your point. It provides an opportunity to distract from the 'rotten barrel' argument (mentioned in the programme notes) by making a show of dealing with some rotten apples. I think anonymising those filmed could have actually had more of an impact (they could still be identified and dealt with later, but as part of a wider initiative). The focus should be on the force, not the individuals.