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Keir Starmer "sick and tired" of hearing about children who aren't school-ready

615 replies

Kirova · 28/09/2025 14:08

I get the point he's trying to make, of course, but it seems like a stick to beat parents with (and particularly mothers, of course). There's no sense in saying you want all children to be in the same place when they start school. Apart from anything else, some are nearly a year younger than others in their cohort, so clearly they are not going to be in the same place.

My youngest daughter was born premature, has a significant hearing impairment and various other difficulties. She will soon be two, and while she's doing brilliantly, I doubt she'll be "school-ready" by the government's current definition when she is four.

Not sure what my point is exactly, it just seems like another absurd over-simplification on the theme of failing our children, state of the country, etc.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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freakingscared · 29/09/2025 17:56

Then start school later after 6 as most of the world

Weald56 · 29/09/2025 17:55

With the exception of children with special needs, no child should still be in nappies (for example) when they start school. If they are in nappies, a parent should accompany them every day - no teacher or TA (or anyone else working in schools) should be expected to change nappies.

LaDamaDeElche · 29/09/2025 17:54

SpikeGilesSandwich · 28/09/2025 14:58

My DS could read fluently and do basic maths when he started school at 4 but was still in pull-ups for medical reasons. Starmer can go fuck himself.

My daughter was the same, could do e everything that people are listing here, but had ADHD, although we didn’t know that at the time because 3 and 4 year olds aren’t diagnosed. Often kids with ADHD have issue with this as they don’t recognise the urge as they are hyperfixated on other things and wet themselves. She wasn’t fully dry at night until nearly 8. She was so upset about wetting herself at school and having to keep changing her knickers and trousers that she started to hold herself and ended up seeing a urologist as she’d had so many UTIs she had a small scar on her kidney. It’s just not as easy as so many posters are saying and I really don’t see the problem with pull-ups if a child needs them. Not all children have a diagnosis at that age.

Happyjoe · 29/09/2025 17:54

MumTeach88 · 29/09/2025 17:51

I'm sick of hearing about "school ready" when they only start school the age they do because it was the last item on the adjenda years ago, with men who had no idea what they were talking about, needing to pick an age!
Maybe if they stopped cutting support and actually provided support, we wouldn't have so many unready children...

Or maybe, if so many as 1 on 4 aren't school ready, the problem is the expectation...

They have more official and government backed help than they did in my generation and my parents/grandparents generation. No, don't think that is it.

MumTeach88 · 29/09/2025 17:51

I'm sick of hearing about "school ready" when they only start school the age they do because it was the last item on the adjenda years ago, with men who had no idea what they were talking about, needing to pick an age!
Maybe if they stopped cutting support and actually provided support, we wouldn't have so many unready children...

Or maybe, if so many as 1 on 4 aren't school ready, the problem is the expectation...

BertieBotts · 29/09/2025 17:46

samplesalequeen · 29/09/2025 16:37

But we’re at a point where softly softly isn’t working. He isn’t talking about you or your child who (possibly) has additional needs. He’s talking about and to the parents of the swathes of underparented children or children who haven’t been parented at all.

Does he or anyone else think that those parents are listening to this speech thinking "Oh right, oops, better get a move on then hadn't I" ?

Parents who can't be bothered to parent don't think like that, do they? They are probably more interested in whatever the latest tiktok trend is or where to get their next fix. Or perhaps they're neck deep in conspiracy theories and poised to distrust anything that comes out of a politician's mouth.

I don't buy this idea that there are swathes of parents who are interested and invested in their children enough to not be total deadbeats but they are lazy and stupid (aka making the wrong choices). It sounds much more like a convenient scapegoat than anything else.

So it just comes across as criticism of parents who are interested and invested but their children have additional needs or other difficulties relating to development, and therefore haven't met milestones for reasons other than parenting (let's remember there are years-long waiting lists for basic interventions like speech therapy FFS) and as OP said, being a parent to a child with developmental issues is brutal in the guilt stakes as it is.

HV check ups have been halved since my eldest was tiny and scrapped altogether in some areas. The UK is already way behind in developmental checks compared to other countries - it's mad. When DS1 was tiny we had a home visit at about 10 days, the 6w check, baby jabs and then a 9m check, a 2 year check and then they had a preschool check. We live in another European country now and there are check ups (outside of jabs/newborn checks) at 6 months, 12 months, and then yearly until age 5.

As far as I am aware the UK doesn't do a preschool or 2 year check up any more. It's one single check at about 10-12 months after the newborn period and then the jabs, which are usually given by a nurse with no medical examination of the baby other than a general are they well enough to be vaccinated. And many of the most vulnerable babies have parents who opt out of vaccinations anyway.

And it sounds to me like the UK is still following a "wait and see" model for developmental interventions rather than the US-style refer anyone with any slight concerns to early intervention and some of the EI children will catch up whereas others will continue to need support longer.

Wait and see is fine if, like what happened with me a couple of weeks ago - I took my 4yo to his check up and said I'm concerned his speech is still not that clear. The doctor agreed and said yes, find him a speech therapist but not before October (October is the fourth "quartile" so starts a new insurance funding block). His first appointment is this week, so we've barely had to wait at all. It means a bit of running around for me to get the insurance slip in time but not a huge issue. I don't actually think DS3 has huge issues with his speech, I don't think he'll need long in speech therapy at all. A bit of a targeted approach which we can follow up at home, and he'll be great.

It doesn't make sense OTOH to have a wait and see approach and then a waiting list of over a year especially for things like speech which can affect their development of other skills like social/emotional/communication. It's completely bonkers. Wait and see plus a prompt response is fine but that doesn't seem to be happening.

If the government are saying we have this huge issue with children being delayed at age 4, does it not also make sense to look at the fact children's developmental checks and support are underfunded to the point of being non-functional?

Happyjoe · 29/09/2025 17:44

GagMeWithASpoon · 29/09/2025 17:40

Not the same as a study, simply interpretation, just like on here.

If we’re talking about this we need to know exactly what we are talking about. Especially since people insist there are “swathes” and “hordes” and “vast numbers “ .

Who insists? I don't see anyone insisting. If it has been reported on news outlets, I do not presume they all plucked it out of thin air.

I do however think 1 in 4 children not toilet ready, as well as other things like using cutlery is far too high. This needs to be addressed, this is a failure of parents.
The fact you want a study on nappy wearing only is irrelevant imo and a strange stance to take. We are letting down our children, this has to stop.

GagMeWithASpoon · 29/09/2025 17:41

sittingonabeach · 29/09/2025 17:33

@GagMeWithASpoon as stated previously I work with schools where the number of children coming into school in nappies are discussed

Do you have some percentages available ( or approximately)? Sorry for asking . I’m not trying to be a dick.

GagMeWithASpoon · 29/09/2025 17:40

Happyjoe · 29/09/2025 17:35

Try google. It's online, very useful, been around a while. You can read about school children in nappies on news websites.

Not the same as a study, simply interpretation, just like on here.

If we’re talking about this we need to know exactly what we are talking about. Especially since people insist there are “swathes” and “hordes” and “vast numbers “ .

Happyjoe · 29/09/2025 17:36

sittingonabeach · 29/09/2025 17:33

@GagMeWithASpoon as stated previously I work with schools where the number of children coming into school in nappies are discussed

Thankyou.

Happyjoe · 29/09/2025 17:35

GagMeWithASpoon · 29/09/2025 17:32

Show me one report /study that specifically mentions children in nappies.

Try google. It's online, very useful, been around a while. You can read about school children in nappies on news websites.

sittingonabeach · 29/09/2025 17:33

@GagMeWithASpoon as stated previously I work with schools where the number of children coming into school in nappies are discussed

GagMeWithASpoon · 29/09/2025 17:32

Happyjoe · 29/09/2025 17:21

Ok, look elsewhere then? It's there to be read. There are reports of too many children starting school in nappies.
1 in 4 children not school ready in the toileting dept is too many.
20 years ago vast majority of children were toilet trained, this is falling. Why?

Am sorry, any children (other than SEN) starting school in nappies is a fail imo.

Edited

Show me one report /study that specifically mentions children in nappies.

Happyjoe · 29/09/2025 17:21

GagMeWithASpoon · 29/09/2025 17:10

The company that does the school readiness yearly survey does not mention nappies. They categorise not toilet trained as having regular toileting mishaps. This can and does include a child that struggles to wipe, or pull their clothes off or back up, or having accidents etc. In none of their reports have they actually mentioned children in nappies.

Ok, look elsewhere then? It's there to be read. There are reports of too many children starting school in nappies.
1 in 4 children not school ready in the toileting dept is too many.
20 years ago vast majority of children were toilet trained, this is falling. Why?

Am sorry, any children (other than SEN) starting school in nappies is a fail imo.

GagMeWithASpoon · 29/09/2025 17:10

Happyjoe · 29/09/2025 10:12

Are you telling someone that her experience is simply not true? Wow.

The company that does the school readiness yearly survey does not mention nappies. They categorise not toilet trained as having regular toileting mishaps. This can and does include a child that struggles to wipe, or pull their clothes off or back up, or having accidents etc. In none of their reports have they actually mentioned children in nappies.

StewkeyBlue · 29/09/2025 16:47

OP.
he doesn’t mean children like yours.
He means children who could have been supported to manage but haven’t.
If more parents of NT. children did their proper job teachers would have more time to focus on those who need more support.

StepawayfromtheLindors · 29/09/2025 16:45

I really don’t think Starmer is referring to children with additional needs. He’s referring to most children and saying that these children need to have a level of independence when they start school that even a few years ago nobody quibbled about.

Teachers don’t want to change nappies or brush teeth; that’s not why they entered mainstream primary teaching. Otherwise they’d be in nurseries or special schools.

samplesalequeen · 29/09/2025 16:37

Kirova · 29/09/2025 16:33

I'm not really "looking to be offended" and considering my older two were both school-ready (presumably...they could play nicely with other children, dress themselves in slightly erratic colour combinations, they could follow instructions and were both toilet-trained) I'm not particularly worried that the state is going to judge me an inept parent if DD3 isn't. However, if your child is born prematurely, you may already feel like you failed as a mother. In my case, I also feel like I failed because I was in intensive care for her first three days, because I couldn't breastfeed and because I had to have emergency surgery a few weeks later when she was still a vulnerable preemie. It might be illogical and I know that all these things most likely were not my fault, but I still have to fight really hard not to feel a bit responsible for the difficulties she has now and may have in the future.

Feeling that your child is going to have some "not school-ready" label stamped on them at 4 makes you more worried about those things, not less. And while I know he's not really thinking about kids like my daughter, I still think the words he used weren't very thoughtful or kind. There are other ways - better ways - to make the point than using the words he did.

And maybe that's soft and oversensitive, but I think he should care because he has a habit of using the wrong words. And it is making it harder for him to deliver his programme, not easier.

But we’re at a point where softly softly isn’t working. He isn’t talking about you or your child who (possibly) has additional needs. He’s talking about and to the parents of the swathes of underparented children or children who haven’t been parented at all.

Kirova · 29/09/2025 16:33

samplesalequeen · 29/09/2025 16:20

Surely, as an adult, you realise that he’s not making that comment about you? You’re looking to be offended by something that wasn’t directed at you.

there are children starting school who haven’t been toilet trained. There was a slot on BBC breakfast several months ago (possibly last year) which compared the % of children who started school untrained in the 1940s and 50s and the amount who are now starting school still in nappies and it’s shot through the roof. We are going backwards as a society when it comes to parenting. My friend works in a school in a major UK city and of the 38 children starting school, 10 were still in nappies. This isn’t normal. That’s more than a quarter of the class. Granted it’s in a poor area of the city but it’s ALWAYS been a poor area and children were always toilet trained in the past. It’s sad indictment of today’s attitudes to parenting.

I'm not really "looking to be offended" and considering my older two were both school-ready (presumably...they could play nicely with other children, dress themselves in slightly erratic colour combinations, they could follow instructions and were both toilet-trained) I'm not particularly worried that the state is going to judge me an inept parent if DD3 isn't. However, if your child is born prematurely, you may already feel like you failed as a mother. In my case, I also feel like I failed because I was in intensive care for her first three days, because I couldn't breastfeed and because I had to have emergency surgery a few weeks later when she was still a vulnerable preemie. It might be illogical and I know that all these things most likely were not my fault, but I still have to fight really hard not to feel a bit responsible for the difficulties she has now and may have in the future.

Feeling that your child is going to have some "not school-ready" label stamped on them at 4 makes you more worried about those things, not less. And while I know he's not really thinking about kids like my daughter, I still think the words he used weren't very thoughtful or kind. There are other ways - better ways - to make the point than using the words he did.

And maybe that's soft and oversensitive, but I think he should care because he has a habit of using the wrong words. And it is making it harder for him to deliver his programme, not easier.

OP posts:
AutumnLeavesAgain2 · 29/09/2025 16:27

I just looked at the actual interview and the point he is making is that he wants to make sure all kids have access to the free pre-school childcare they are entitled to, so the mothers are not alone in getting them school-ready.

underthecokesign · 29/09/2025 16:23

Uggbootsforever · 28/09/2025 16:10

Honestly your use of vocabulary and correct spelling leaves me doubting how ‘working class’ you appear to others even if you truly are.

That's quite the insulting/inaccurate generalisation you just made about working-class people there.

samplesalequeen · 29/09/2025 16:20

Kirova · 28/09/2025 14:31

I do get the point. It's just when you're the parent of the child who has delayed speech, digestive difficulties, slow growth and generally is "behind" on everything, it's easy to feel a bit shit about your parenting. But she is doing well and exceeding everyone's expectations. And hopefully by the time she's at school, she may have even discovered the concept of sleep 😭

Surely, as an adult, you realise that he’s not making that comment about you? You’re looking to be offended by something that wasn’t directed at you.

there are children starting school who haven’t been toilet trained. There was a slot on BBC breakfast several months ago (possibly last year) which compared the % of children who started school untrained in the 1940s and 50s and the amount who are now starting school still in nappies and it’s shot through the roof. We are going backwards as a society when it comes to parenting. My friend works in a school in a major UK city and of the 38 children starting school, 10 were still in nappies. This isn’t normal. That’s more than a quarter of the class. Granted it’s in a poor area of the city but it’s ALWAYS been a poor area and children were always toilet trained in the past. It’s sad indictment of today’s attitudes to parenting.

illsendansostotheworld · 29/09/2025 16:15

verycloakanddaggers · 29/09/2025 14:54

Since 2010 we've had fifteen years of cuts for every single service and a steep fall in wages (in real terms). Every piece of our society is feeling it.

Toilet paper is cheaper than nappies so all the more reason to train em up!

ERthree · 29/09/2025 16:14

One of the reasons children start school still in nappies is because they can. Right up to the late 90s if you wanted your child to go to playgroup age 3 they had to be out of nappies. Not once did i have a child not able to start because they weren't "dry". Mums made sure their child was potty trained so they could start. Then we were told were discriminating against children that weren't ready. What then happened is mums realised they had a ready made excuse for not having their child ready to start.
If it was announced tomorrow that if your child is still not toilet trained by the time they start school a parent must be on call to change them, all NT children would be out of nappies because parents would no longer have an excuse.

illsendansostotheworld · 29/09/2025 16:12

itsgettingweird · 28/09/2025 14:27

Did he say he was sick and tired of hearing it or say he’s sick and tired of parents not preparing their children and rather just moaning they aren’t school ready?

Because I agree that I’m fed up of hearing it. Children have started school at the same age since forever. If they aren’t ready now it’s because attitudes have changed - children’s development hasn’t.

It's different if your child has some medical or learning needs.

But I hear parents with completely
nt children saying at 3 they won’t be school ready and the teachers will just have to deal with it. I don’t think they even try!

and I say that as a parent of an autistic DS who started school 3 weeks after he turned 4 and wasn’t as ready as some children - but my job was to get him as ready as was possible rather than moaning about it.

I would imagine it’s to do with the lastest trend of deferring children who would otherwise be fine if given the chance.

Having said that our education system needs a massive overhaul in general and I say that as someone who works in education!!

I agree.
Last year, a third of our pan who got offered a place rejected it as they wanted to defer (small school so not as many as it sounds) - never known that before unless the child has severe needs