Keir Starmer "sick and tired" of hearing about children who aren't school-ready

I was lucky Dmum suggested routine training for toitet training when waiting for signs didn't work and DS problems aren't as bad.

I also raised early concerns with DS speach - he had a wide vocbulary -- but a few sounds weren't right. Did get him assesed but wasn't bad enough to get any help - though was helpfully told even 5 years before it would have been. So looked on-line for support.

Then preschool - reception and Y1 they kept doing hearing tests some in school some we were just told to get him to - which we did no input on timing or location - and he'd just pass and just fail - I think it was averaging one or two a term. The only thing that happened was it was triggered another hearing test.

No extra support suggested at home no support put in at school and more worrying no concneession. We flagged up his shocking poor working memory -to be told it was unimportant. So he can't remember instructions and he it's likely he couldn't hear them in first place - but him occaionally struggling with instructions in school was poor parenting .

Interesting all the talk of aged 7 being when many other counties start school. DS was 7 in Y3 and that was year he stopped having issues - he was in top groups I though because of home support school thought and had teachers say on here becuase Y3 often when kids even out/up and hit their level.

I'm skeptical of all they well ND/SEN kids are all spotted early - not my experience or experience of most SEN/ND familes we know or when they are that there is any support there and my kids are nearly done with education and over time cuts have just got deeper and services fewer.

I’m sorry you had to go through all of that and still struggling without any real support.

Those who know, know , and understand. Those who don’t, don’t want to hear it. That applies to the general public and , sadly , HCPs.

We had similar with DD’s speech delay. Concerns ignored. Wait and see. “If she understood, she’d be speaking” - why the fuck aren’t you concerned she has no speech AND no understanding then? Are you still concerned? Yes!! Wait 6 more months. I couldn’t even get a referral to see a SALT until she was 4 and a half and I started pointing it out since she was 2. Saw the SALT , she noticed some concerns/issues with sounds told me to wait and see if her y1 teacher will raise any concerns and give me a new referral. We were extremely lucky she eventually caught up (I put a lot of work in at home with her).

But people on here are convinced 4 yos will have a bunch of professionals involved, a list of diagnosis and extended external input as “proof” you’re not just a crappy parent or that your child actually has an issue. As if!

It's actually having my child in nursery making toilet training difficult as it's different there to home and I'm trying to focus him on the nursery setting.

If I was a sahm I think we'd have cracked it completely but I have to work, so it is what is.

He was talking about how some can already read while others are almost literally in nappies. Some are literally in nappies, not almost, but that’s what he was saying. He seems to think widened access to childcare will improve things. Presumably because other services will pick up on children who aren’t meeting milestones before starting school.

I can't be bothered to argue, you are one of those people who hijacks everything and makes it about you and your story! People are asking me why women on benefits are still able to breed like rabbits and I don't know! They obviously know loopholes to exploit don't they. I'm being demonised here but why do you think the government is making benefit reforms? Because the system isn't working and it's being too exploited. Don't start pretending that I criticised disabled kids because I didn't! But you seem to want all kids to written off as disabled for such as ADHD? My 51 year old brother is in an 8 year waiting list for ADHD assessment that he's likely had all his life but he's never been disabled, he has friends that are ADHD and aren't disabled. That's another bad aspect of today's society that parents are writing so many kids off! If they grow up viewing themselves as disabled and needing benefits, how do you readjust that mindset to make sure they don't just go into a life of benefits as adults.
We are heading for a future where a larger part of society wants benefits than there is people working to pay for it.

Stop using such dehumanising language.

I can't be bothered to argue, you are one of those people who hijacks everything and makes it about you and your story! People are asking me why women on benefits are still able to breed like rabbits and I don't know! They obviously know loopholes to exploit don't they. I'm being demonised here but why do you think the government is making benefit reforms? Because the system isn't working and it's being too exploited. Don't start pretending that I criticised disabled kids because I didn't! But you seem to want all kids to written off as disabled for such as ADHD? My 51 year old brother is in an 8 year waiting list for ADHD assessment that he's likely had all his life but he's never been disabled, he has friends that are ADHD and aren't disabled. That's another bad aspect of today's society that parents are writing so many kids off! If they grow up viewing themselves as disabled and needing benefits, how do you readjust that mindset to make sure they don't just go into a life of benefits as adults.
We are heading for a future where a larger part of society wants benefits than there is people working to pay for it.

I suspect this is part of the issue we had for my son.

We started potty training at 18 months when he started removing his own nappies. We just weren't cracking it.

He is autistic and speech delayed so I reached out for help from the HV team who scolded me for not waiting for signs of readiness.

We waited until 2, then tried again when he was starting to pull his own pants up, again we just couldn't crack it. We tried to go to routine rather than waiting for communication to develop, and he was completely disinterested in rewards or rather, he didn't associate the reward with the behaviour.

Then at 3 we were desperate. We'd had the last 2 weeks of the school holidays with semi-success, but then nursery insisted on a nappies for nursery, pants for home policy as he was still frequently having accidents as they were relying on him verbally communicating (which just wasn't happening as he was non-verbal), he regressed, had anxiety around potties and toilets and then started withholding his bowel movements.

By almost 4 the HV got back in touch and I said he just isn't showing enough signs of readiness, and I got scolded again for waiting for signs of readiness because that's just not how it's done now, we don't wait for signs of readiness, we create routine and structure.

She sent me on an ERIC webinar specifically for SEN kids.

I got told don't wait for signs of readiness, but don't start unless they're ready. Always change nappies in the bathroom to create an association, unless your child has bathroom anxiety. Never ever use nappies or pull ups, unless your child withholds bowel movements and then you always use nappies or pull ups. Always praise them for doing a good job, but never praise them because sometimes it draws attention to what they're doing and makes them panic.

My head was spinning by the end of it.

I even remember at 7-8 months old I asked about elimination communication, and was laughed at for being a "crunchy mum". But I wish I'd bloody done it.

DS is almost 7 and they still won't refer to the continence team.

Whoa. My kids are ND. I get DLA for one of them. I work full time yet still get UC to top up my wage. I’m a single parent - not by choice. My UC work commitments are actually turned off due to me getting carers element but I choose to work. I’ve just increased from part time to full time.

However, I work in education. Those parents who don’t work due to their ND children are not working due to the massive needs of their children. No one chooses to have a disabled child. Diagnostic waiting lists are years and years long so you don’t have a child and hope they might get diagnosed so you don’t have to work. DLA and PIP claims are often rejected unless the proof of real need above and beyond generated care.

You tell me why we still see these large families, women moaning that their 6 young kids are living in a mouldy flat or how they need a 4 bed home from the council because they've had 6 kids whilst living in a one bed flat! All these absent dads! It's still happening so there are still loopholes being exploited! Maybe thats why there's an 8 to 10 year waiting list for things like ADHD assessment because people are looking for reasons not to work, if you keep popping kids out and claiming they are all ND I guess you don't get asked to find work and get benefits for it. I would love to know what has to be done to stop this benefit culture.

Oh goody a benefits bashing thread.

Honestly your use of vocabulary and correct spelling leaves me doubting how ‘working class’ you appear to others even if you truly are.

"People sat on benefits and mass bred, and once these people are in a situation where they have 4 kids under the age of 6 they just leave them to it because it's too much hassle and having all those young and dependant kids to get through basic milestones. "

Having 4 kids under 6 is not new though. It was common place not so long ago.

Only parents on benefits are lazy?

I suspect this is part of the issue we had for my son.

We started potty training at 18 months when he started removing his own nappies. We just weren't cracking it.

He is autistic and speech delayed so I reached out for help from the HV team who scolded me for not waiting for signs of readiness.

We waited until 2, then tried again when he was starting to pull his own pants up, again we just couldn't crack it. We tried to go to routine rather than waiting for communication to develop, and he was completely disinterested in rewards or rather, he didn't associate the reward with the behaviour.

Then at 3 we were desperate. We'd had the last 2 weeks of the school holidays with semi-success, but then nursery insisted on a nappies for nursery, pants for home policy as he was still frequently having accidents as they were relying on him verbally communicating (which just wasn't happening as he was non-verbal), he regressed, had anxiety around potties and toilets and then started withholding his bowel movements.

By almost 4 the HV got back in touch and I said he just isn't showing enough signs of readiness, and I got scolded again for waiting for signs of readiness because that's just not how it's done now, we don't wait for signs of readiness, we create routine and structure.

She sent me on an ERIC webinar specifically for SEN kids.

I got told don't wait for signs of readiness, but don't start unless they're ready. Always change nappies in the bathroom to create an association, unless your child has bathroom anxiety. Never ever use nappies or pull ups, unless your child withholds bowel movements and then you always use nappies or pull ups. Always praise them for doing a good job, but never praise them because sometimes it draws attention to what they're doing and makes them panic.

My head was spinning by the end of it.

I even remember at 7-8 months old I asked about elimination communication, and was laughed at for being a "crunchy mum". But I wish I'd bloody done it.

DS is almost 7 and they still won't refer to the continence team.

I’m sick and tired of hearing about how Reception teachers with 1 TA have a cohort of 30 where at least 5 have severe complex SEND, as in they’re non verbal, in nappies and functioning at a toddler level.

Their parents don’t want them there and send them to try and make sure they will eventually get the specialist placement they need, mainstream school can’t meet their needs in anyway at all and they take up an enormous proportion of the time available to the teacher and TA.

There has always been a small cohort of NT children who are not ‘school ready’ because of emerging or known minor needs or neglectful parenting but reception was always a time to smooth out the issues, put in place support for parents who’d fallen through the net etc so all would be ready for work in more formal Year 1

The problem now is that those children’s needs are overshadowed by the profoundly high SEN needs in the class and this is overwhelming teachers.

Sort out the crisis in SEN education and stop warehousing high need children for their first couple of years to save money and you’ll sort out the school readiness issue.

Does he or anyone else think that those parents are listening to this speech thinking "Oh right, oops, better get a move on then hadn't I" ?

Parents who can't be bothered to parent don't think like that, do they? They are probably more interested in whatever the latest tiktok trend is or where to get their next fix. Or perhaps they're neck deep in conspiracy theories and poised to distrust anything that comes out of a politician's mouth.

I don't buy this idea that there are swathes of parents who are interested and invested in their children enough to not be total deadbeats but they are lazy and stupid (aka making the wrong choices). It sounds much more like a convenient scapegoat than anything else.

So it just comes across as criticism of parents who are interested and invested but their children have additional needs or other difficulties relating to development, and therefore haven't met milestones for reasons other than parenting (let's remember there are years-long waiting lists for basic interventions like speech therapy FFS) and as OP said, being a parent to a child with developmental issues is brutal in the guilt stakes as it is.

HV check ups have been halved since my eldest was tiny and scrapped altogether in some areas. The UK is already way behind in developmental checks compared to other countries - it's mad. When DS1 was tiny we had a home visit at about 10 days, the 6w check, baby jabs and then a 9m check, a 2 year check and then they had a preschool check. We live in another European country now and there are check ups (outside of jabs/newborn checks) at 6 months, 12 months, and then yearly until age 5.

As far as I am aware the UK doesn't do a preschool or 2 year check up any more. It's one single check at about 10-12 months after the newborn period and then the jabs, which are usually given by a nurse with no medical examination of the baby other than a general are they well enough to be vaccinated. And many of the most vulnerable babies have parents who opt out of vaccinations anyway.

And it sounds to me like the UK is still following a "wait and see" model for developmental interventions rather than the US-style refer anyone with any slight concerns to early intervention and some of the EI children will catch up whereas others will continue to need support longer.

Wait and see is fine if, like what happened with me a couple of weeks ago - I took my 4yo to his check up and said I'm concerned his speech is still not that clear. The doctor agreed and said yes, find him a speech therapist but not before October (October is the fourth "quartile" so starts a new insurance funding block). His first appointment is this week, so we've barely had to wait at all. It means a bit of running around for me to get the insurance slip in time but not a huge issue. I don't actually think DS3 has huge issues with his speech, I don't think he'll need long in speech therapy at all. A bit of a targeted approach which we can follow up at home, and he'll be great.

It doesn't make sense OTOH to have a wait and see approach and then a waiting list of over a year especially for things like speech which can affect their development of other skills like social/emotional/communication. It's completely bonkers. Wait and see plus a prompt response is fine but that doesn't seem to be happening.

If the government are saying we have this huge issue with children being delayed at age 4, does it not also make sense to look at the fact children's developmental checks and support are underfunded to the point of being non-functional?

The 2 children benefit cap started in 2017, alongside many other benefit cuts and a scarcity of council housing. So how come things are getting worse? 15 years ago what you say might’ve applied BUT apparently this wasn’t a problem then. So how does that work out?