Keir Starmer "sick and tired" of hearing about children who aren't school-ready

They shouldn't even be in school in my strong opinion, They should be having high quality, rich play based learning.

That’s what reception is, it’s just in a school and has a uniform

Let’s not pretend people don’t judge us on these things. By all accounts PP will be fine.

I'm sick and tired of hearing adults expecting children who are four to be 'school ready.' These are still early years children. They shouldn't even be in school in my strong opinion, They should be having high quality, rich play based learning. Adults working with early years children should expect to have to help these children with toileting, especially if they empty their bowels. Its normal for children this age to not be able to properly clean themselves.

There is such a difference in normal development at these ages, of course not all children will be ready at the same ages.

Children who are in homes where parents are struggling or who are neglecting normal parenting and interactions with their children are a different matter. But the fact that is an issue in our society is even more of an argument for a strong play based approach to early years to help children to equalise (as far as possible) before starting formal school.

Is this issue unique to the UK?
Most countries start school at 4-5?
Is it related to Covid again most countries experienced similar loss of public services? Is it related to premature or traumatic births, IVF, and late maternal/paternal age? Lots of factors that could easily be quickly reviewed.
Next it’s extremely obvious there absolutely needs to be a boost in the number of psychiatrists and educational psychologists to get assessments completed within 6-8 months.

A large % of adults don’t wash their hands after going to the loo so this should be no surprise to anyone. However, that’s not what the poster said.

I'm not asking them to? I'm highlighting what is ultimately a recognised barrier to working class women and disadvantaged women accessing group-based services and facilities.

I find this all rather baffling. I know I'm ancient, but when I started school in 1960, all the children could do buttons, most could do shoelaces and and many could tie their own tie (uniforms were shirt, tie and blazer). The ones who could helped those who couldn't, until they could do it themselves. And I can't recall any who couldn't manage cutlery, we all had school dinners sitting at long tables in the school hall,

I think children with additional needs may have gone to specialist schools though, rather than mainstream. There were certainly "ESN" schools, a school friend's sister went to one. And in my LEA, children didn't start school until they were 5.

But most mothers of young children were SAHP's, and there was no screen time or even daytime tv (apart from the lunchtime news) so I guess they had the time to teach us these skills.

Agree with this. I’ve worked with children for 34 years. I have many friends working in Education. Things have changed for children and not for the better.

The school ready situation is one of the most obvious but it stretches to younger and older. Toddlers in pushchairs looking at screens rather than board books. A third of all 11 year olds not fully ready for the Secondary school curriculum because they are behind in English and Maths.

Children don’t get a second chance at childhood. Yes, there will always be children who have developmental delays. But more and more people in Education are expressing concerns about our younger generations.

To ignore these concerns would be downright neglectful.

It’s because I’m working class I know how stupid and offensive your post is

What bothers me about this is the assumption that if the child goes to nursery everything will be better. And mum and dad can work full time, making money to give to the government.

Not for aspirational reasons, like a bigger house, more interesting activities and holidays, or a private education, or tutoring or anything else. Working like dogs to keep out of debt as much as possible, making many lifestyle sacrifices along the way. No need to worry about a pension! Rachel's got this. Literally.

I hope there is no plan that your child must go to nursery. It's a slippery slope. Might as well build children's homes from 12 months onwards and we can all pop our kids in there, seeing them once or twice a year, knowing they will emerge at 21 with all the social skills required in the brand new dawn.

Much as I dislike seeing mums walking their kids to school, mum glued to her phone and not a word exchanged, I don't believe nurseries are the holy grail of childhood.

Well that’s ignorance on your part regarding SEN and how it presents. If you can’t understand what I’m getting at then there so no point in further discussion.

I agree with what you’re saying in general terms. I agree parents need to parent their children and have consequences for negative actions, I think using screen time as a babysitter for a 4 year old is a terrible idea and I agree that some parents are lazy and just expect school staff to parent their child.

What you’ve described above IMO sounds like gentle parenting or shall I say ‘No consequences parents’ who let their kids run wild, scream and shout in restaurants and defend it by saying “Little Jonny likes to express himself” and I detest that kind of entitlement and that will absolutely have negative consequences when they start school because they’ve been able to rue the roost and never had to follow instructions etc etc…..

Having said that, my original point was, there are those children who could have undiagnosed SEN and would present in the same way as those with feckless
parents. Developmental Coordination Disorder for example is a condition whereby a child would struggle to get changed, do buttons/laces, eat properly with a knife and folk.

Surely it's the same as any other measurement of a child's development? Yes, you should of course take into account any mental or physical challenges children are facing, but if those do not apply then it's reasonable to expect a certain level of progress/attainment by a certain point, e.g. being toilet trained by the age of five, etc. Having these measurements in place can also highlight issues that might require medical or other intervention.

Of course. I wouldn't ever want to suggest otherwise - absolute solidarity to women of all classes trying to raise children as best they can.

It's not really about them being smug - it's that they dominate, their experiences dominate, how they raise their children dominate. Even as a woman now in my 40s it can be difficult to navigate that. My daughter has an activity that is very middle class and I still experience a bit of intimidation around our limitations. Maybe intimidation is the wrong word but I can't think of a better one.

Anyway, I actually think isolation is the biggest problem in parenting and is something groups alone can't combat no matter how they're facilitated.

I suspect that things are worse these days because in the past, kids with SN were not seen or heard by NT school peers. They were educated (?) elsewhere instead of being sold the modern lie that most kids can be accompanied date din mainstream. I suspect that demand has been even higher for SN schools but it’s much cheaper to pretend that mainstream can accommodate them.

Oh don’t start the faux naivety. If you were WC you would know exactly what I mean.

Surely if parents are too shattered to potty train, which is part of parenting, don't have children? What takes longer, potty training or keep changing nappies, cleaning them up several times a day, checking for sores and bath nights every night?

At the end of the day, school is about learning only.. It is the parents responsibility to do their bit.

What has happened with the toilet thing? I mean, it was just another milestone when I was growing up, parents before and a proud one to get through. Why are so many parents not teaching their children how to toilet? I understand some children out there need more help and kids grow at a different pace, but not potty training so so many children (approx a quarter of all children) by the time they are five seems, well, very strange.

There used to be a box of spare knickers! I think it's quite common/normal for children to have accidents. They are still little. Especially in assemblies where it's drummed into them you are supposed to sit still, it's easy for it to be "too late" very quickly. But I think small children having the occasional accident is different to children (with no SEN) just not being out of nappies.

I had one child who was school ready and another with severe additional needs which still wouldn't be now at the age of 6, and likely never will be, as he is that disabled. It is a bit annoying like a PM makes such poorly informed sweeping statements. The only reason my son was in a mainstream in year R was because the council were woefully bad at planning and ensuring there were enough specialist places for children that are disabled enough to need them. If they actually fixed that issue instead of blaming parents by default then they might find the issue goes away.

I suspect a fair bit of it has to do with families prioritising. If you're exhausted, working long hours and crushed from things constantly being difficult, then survival, rather than getting your kids "school-ready", will be the priority.

How can kids thrive if their parents are barely surviving?

What?! I’m WC myself (lorry driver dad). She seems quite eloquent and as such I said I don’t think anyone will make assumptions about her.

I think most of us will realise that Starmer did not mean to include children with medical issues or SN.

I’m guessing the poster means rather than not know how to wash their hands, it’s a case that they haven’t been taught by parents that hands need washing after they’ve used the toilet.

I have seen similar behaviour and I'm similarly dubious about gentle 'parenting'.