Keir Starmer "sick and tired" of hearing about children who aren't school-ready

I’m sick and tired of hearing about Keir Starmer and his party dodging paying their taxes when they are bleeding this country dry with paying tax.

Keir Starmer’s donkey field: what are the allegations and how has he responded?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/28/keir-starmer-donkey-field-what-are-allegations-how-has-he-responded

It is not the job of school to teach your child basics, nor wipe your child's bum or change a nappy. End of. People who cannot see that are part of the problem (SEN excused of course).

For many many many years toilet training before primary school wasn't a problem. Who do you think is to blame? Hint, not the school's fault.

My daughter was premature and I decided she wasn’t school ready at 4. So I didn’t send her in until the September (just before she was five).
It was mostly things like being able to sit still and toileting. But by the September, she could do both.

The government need to realise that if parents are working, they can’t devote the 1-1 for things like toilet training to a a time frame.

@Bambamhoohoo @brightbrightness so are the usa/canada/aus/nz/ and other countries finding that in each reception class there are children coming to school not toilet trained, unable to hold a book and turn pages, unable to slip on and off simple clothing items or hold a crayon? I certainly don't see it in other international papers or hear other world leaders pointing this out.

I think this is a good point. If a child is in nursery then it's not unlikely both parents (if there are two parents) are working, so it might just be as simple as it being something they planned to get round to and then didn't. There's also the question of how to do it on a practical basis. I didn't have a clue how to go about it so read a bunch of conflicting things on the internet and then muddled through. She was potty trained just around her 3rd birthday after some stopping and starting and I was once criticised for that being too late even thought I know it's completely normal. She didn't like the potty and was afraid of the toilet pipes which complicated it. She won't do anything if she's not ready, she was like that at 2 and is still like that at 10. It wasn't the easiest thing I've ever done.

But it does have to be done and if there are parents are struggling then no matter whether the reason is time, ability or laziness, just shouting at them isn't going to change it. It's clearly symptomatic of a bigger issue.

When we talk about 4 year olds specifically you would expect most of them to be toilet trained and most ARE. Most of the rest could just fall into a normal range of development at I don't hear about it being a consistent problem by the time they're a few years into school.

Well yes and I’m sure most parents don’t buy a 5 year old with DCD shoes with laces….!

Getting changed for PE will be more difficult for them regardless of how much their parents try to help them. They will be slower taj their peers.
Using a knife and folk at 4 will also be more difficult for them too.

To add DCD is often a co-morbidity with another ND, in other words it’s mostly diagnosed alongside something else so there’s a double whammy there! Lucky for those only diagnosed with that…

I don't think that anyone expects all children, especially ones with disabilities, or development delays for valid reasons to be school ready, what needs to be addressed, and it's difficult to add all the exceptions in a interview, is for the children who are not ready because of, just because of, dreadful parenting.

If the Government can tackle the lazy parenting crew, make sure that they are forced to deal with their not ready children, then there will be more time and resources for the children who do really need it.

Jumping on every comment a Minister makes as if it applies personally to exceptional medical circumstances doesn't help the discussion and actions to progress. But this happens all the time. Nothing goes forward because people bring up their circumstances, just their circumstances and nothing else matters.

Governing hundreds of thousands, millions, of children and parents, you have to make decisions for the whole, policies have to be taken to help as many as you can, which does mean that some will be outside those parameters. Bespoke politics, which includes education, healthcare, housing etc. is not, never has been and never will be possible for any population.

A child with no medical reason to not be school ready is a failing of their parents. Doesn't this need addressing? Shouldn't parents be made accountable for the rearing of the children they chose to have? When you have safe, effective and available birth control, and if need be abortion options, you should assume each child born is a choice, wanted, so why not make the parents responsible for what they have done? Yes I agree it is still far too much put upon the mother, this also needs addressing. I would advocate for a huge advertising campaign informing women of the lack of accountability that men can get away with at this moment in time, that there isn't this social safety net, that having a child isn't a gateway to an easy life, and nor should it be. That there aren't the facilities for easy, effective support and you will have to fight every step of the way. Just some realism wouldn't harm anyone.

If your child can be school ready they should be. No excuses.

Exactly. These aren’t high level skills to learn or teach (barring SpLD) - schools do not expect children to come recognising letters, let alone being able to read, but they have always been able to assume a child could turn a page in a book… And all the countries I’m aware of that start ‘school’ later than we do, still have Reception style pre-school environments where most children attend and are expected to be able to dress themselves, use cutlery (imagine the French accepting a child only able to eat with their fingers aged 4! Here’s an outline of a French preschool experience, which is compulsory from age 3, and includes learning to dress independently, maths, ‘writing’, etc. but does have a nap after their 4 course lunch that definitely requires cutlery…) https://theknowledgenuggets.com/a-year-in-the-life-of-a-french-preschooler/

If schools are not able to assist early years children with toileting then that is just a sign that schools are not a suitable place for early years children. It would be unusual for a child that age to be in nappies but also many children that age cannot fully clean themselves after a bowel movement.

And most children start school at four in England and three in Wales.

My ds was 10 weeks prem, August born not November. He started at 4 (in age 2 clothes). He could sit on the carpet, dress, recognise numbers up to 50 and write his name. Im a lone parent, it was my responsibility to make sure he was ready for school.

Never thought i would agree with that man on any issue but i agree with him on this. Too many parents making too many excuses for their poor parenting. Yes if a child is ND it depends on the child. Forty years ago when my youngest started school ( 4yrs 8 months) she was toilet trained, could dress herself, could sit and listen for more than 5 minutes. She could use a glass and cutlery. She could hold a pencil, use scissors, knew how to handle a book and could share with other children, in fact she could do most of it by the time she went to playgroup at 3. I was in my very early 20s with no family support but i managed to send her ready for school. What has changed ? Parents are what has changed Parents have their heads in a screen far too much, too many see it as they have paid the childcare bill so that makes it someone else's job to sort their children out or parents that are so bloody wrapped up in being BFF with their child they don't see it as their job to parent. If your child it NT and is not ready for school, it is your fault, just yours.

But what he said wasn’t directed at you personally. He doesn’t even know you.

Oh my Lord, it really isn't. I have spent time in reception classes and time in high quality play based early years setting and there is no comparison. You can't have high quality play based learning in the cramped environment of a classroom, and nor can you have it with staff who are not trained in play based learning and teachers typically aren't trained in this. I live in a part of the UK which is supposed to have had play based learning for many years and they just don't. The teachers will tell you they do but I have spent time in their classrooms and they have no idea what play based learning is.

Honestly, go and spend time in somewhere like Cowgate Under Fives in Edinburgh or Ely and Caerau Early Years centre in Cardiff and you will see the difference between that and a reception class.

This. My daughter was born mid August, but she was more than school ready 🤷‍♀️

Obviously, if special needs are involved, it’s different.

You expect schools to help 5 year olds go to the toilet as part of their daily job? Normal potty training is achieved by 3 years old, this isn't being natural slower in learning for some pupils.. this is 2 years behind.

Why do you expect schools to take up the slack from lack of parenting? Blimey, could you imagine it? Class of say, 25 pupils, 5 of which need a shit over the next hour.. Teacher stops to take them to the loo or change their nappy, when does the teaching take place for the other pupils? Or as you put it - High quality play based learning? Can't do that if having to parent.

This!
My child is nearly 3 and has a speech delay. We talk to her, sing nursery rhymes with her, read to her, encourage her in lots of ways. She watches educational programmers that she engages with aswell but still struggles to say alot of words properly. You can see that she is slowly getting the hang of things but children can sometimes just take more time its not always a case of children being left in front of a screen.

My ds was 10 weeks prem, August born not November. He started at 4 (in age 2 clothes). He could sit on the carpet, dress, recognise numbers up to 50 and write his name. Im a lone parent, it was my responsibility to make sure he was ready for school.

It seems taboo to say it but there is a lot of shit parenting out there.

There is research showing that children, boys in particular, are not ready for school until they are 7. Some countries don't start school until this age and do no worse that countries where children start school aged 4.

I actually agree with this. I come from a country with the Reception starting at 6. I've never gone to nursery, just went with other kids to reception aged nearly 6. I was the only kid in the class who could read - that was only because I was curious about the TV magazine and my mum taught me to read at home. Teaching 3-4 year olds stuff that 6 year olds do with ease must be real pain, so I sympathise with the teachers. Me and my friends never had to learn all of this so early and we are fine... actually my country beats the UK in international reading/math comparison studies of teenagers... Starting so early to learn to read/write doesn't really make sense and has no impact in later life.

How on earth could this possibly only be related to the uk?! Do you think we’re the only country working full time or giving our children iPads?! I know we Brits love to self hate but the only possible way this could be a British only problem is if we were the only ones who set these expectations of 4 year olds, and therefore and the only ones measuring ourselves missing them.

Only a minority of countries in the world start school as young as we do in the UK - 12% at the last count I read about. And I believe all of these are formal British colonies.

I'm also wondering how KS would know that every child starting school like this doesn't have SEND. Some will not be diagnosed yet and I would say that quite a lot of schools do not want to broach this subject with parents if it is suspected, as they'd be obliged to provide additional support then. Even if the school did recognise a need, it can take a few years to even get that diagnosis. The ADHD wait list in my area alone is six years! I think a lack of early diagnosis is part of the issue.

Toilet training is also difficult if you are both FT working parents doing shifts, and you also need childcare that is on board with the process too, since most send their kids from 9-12 months. I would argue about what is going on in nurseries more than anything, as they'd probably spend more time with children of the FT working parents than the parents do.

I'm a big fan of a good nursery and I agree - we should be trying to move away from a model where both parents need to work and use childcare (but only 8am-6pm on weekdays of course).

Yep!

Developmental Coordination Disorder for example is a condition whereby a child would struggle to get changed, do buttons/laces, eat properly with a knife and folk.

So parents need to do more work with their children on these, to get them as good at the tasks as possible. Or find reasonable alternatives e.g. shoes with Velcro. Not just say “oh well, they have this disorder so they don’t have to try to do it”.

And I say that as someone who has that disorder, and remembers how long it took my parents to teach me how to tie laces as there was no way I was going to be able to manage buckles independently. Thankfully there are more options for shoes now.