Keir Starmer "sick and tired" of hearing about children who aren't school-ready

I think there is a huge difference between 25% of the class not being properly toilet trained and leading people to believe that in an average class 7 or 8 DC start reception in nappies, as that is simply not true. IME many of the not properly trained DC that need support are on NHS waiting lists and many of these DC later get a diagnosis or help. I believe we also have less resources in the classroom to help DC and notice they need the toilet/remind them to try. When I was at school we had atleast 2 TAs in reception class and there was much less actual learning in reception.

In my experience (as a parent) it is usually the DC that trained earlier rather than later that are still having accidents at school.

Being school ready isn't just about being out of nappies - it's the tabloid press who have picked up on this single aspect and made it such a big thing. Not being school ready means; underdeveloped communication and social skills, unable to follow instructions, unable to sit and listen to a story, not having sufficinet fine motor skills to start writing letters and numbers, not being able to wipe their own bottoms, not being able to take their coats on and off and not being able to play nicely with other children.

I should imagine its a combination of nappies, accidents? Either way toileting issues shouldn't be happening in such large numbers with kids who are not SEN.

According to the report, 1 in 4 children not toilet trained. Perfectly relevant to this thread.

So are we thinking it might be area dependent? Or some other factors? Or just not as big an issue as it’s made out to be? I can’t find anything contentious in what Kier said, he was emphasising he wanted all children to start school from a level position.

With regards to children that go to nursery, the toddler room at our private nursery has a toilet room with cubicles like in a school. From age two, and I always saw children using them at drop offs and pickups. I don’t think it’s fair to blame working parents, as many of us work full time, but our children are toilet trained at two. We either pick a holiday, or take a few days off to get it underway

So there's much more going on then - some sort of disablity - so not the normal situation you were trying to make out it was. .

I have involvement with schools. There are more children coming to school not properly toilet trained, it’s much more than the occasional accidental wee. Wet patches after carpet time are an occupational hazard! But we have YR classes where up to 25% will have recorded toilet training issues

It’s parental failure.

I also think, to be fair, what a lot of people called toilet training in the past was just “catching wee” and not training the child at all.

As I've said the report doesn't mention nappies, it says that 1 in 4 children are not toilet trained. It depends on a persons definition of toilet trained. I have never experienced a class were 25% were in nappies, but I could find it plausible that 25% may have the odd accident, like they did when I was a child.

But the poster above is taking about toilet training. Your link is about school readiness which is not (amazingly according to this thread) just toilet training.

I was just talking to someone about toilet training yesterday. There is much more of an emphasis on looking for signs of readiness now, whereas I suspect my DM’s generation (parenting in the 1970s and 1980s) toilet trained at particular ages regardless of whether the child seemed ready.

Also, many more mothers were at home full time and I do think toilet training is something that needs a consistent approach where you stay home for several days at a time. If children are moving between several settings, that has to be harder to implement. And maybe parents were more confident - there was perhaps more of a “village” of support and advice than there is now.

I’m not saying some parents aren’t lazy but I think the reasons for this one are more complex in most cases.

https://ihv.org.uk/news-and-views/news/teachers-report-that-growing-numbers-of-children-are-not-ready-for-school/

Pretty much every child? Then what was the report all about?

IME pretty much every child in reception is out of nappies and what is actually meant are DC having the odd accident, just like in the past. I'm not convinced that that much has changed for the children. IME a small minority of newly qualified teachers/TAs would like you to believe that the job is different when actually it is the attitude of a small minority of those that chose these roles. Obviously some the attitudes are linked to pay/lack of resources in the classroom/high expectations from the curriculum meaning teachers are stressed but this shouldn't be transferred to parents.

UK. I think they cannot ban children who aren’t, but they basically said in the induction and the presentation and the written materials that the expectation was they would be potty trained and that any that aren’t, parents should put real focus on this over the summer break

@january1244 what country are you in? Thought that wasn’t allowed for discriminatory reasons.

But he really isn't talking about kids with medical needs or sen.
If your dd has delays then research ehcp so she has the support in place when she does start school.

My son is three and one of 28 children at his school nursery. All of the children are potty trained. The school made a big issue at the induction that all children needed to be potty trained, and for any that aren’t, parents needed to use the summer to get them there.

My 18 month old even can use a knife and fork and cup. Where are things going wrong that neurotypical children aren’t potty trained l, able to dress themselves, or able to eat with cutlery by 4-5? I think it’s good the government are focusing on this and can provide more support hopefully. Imagine how hard it would be for a teacher to have several not school ready children in a class of around 30 children.

They are though aren’t they? Multiple teachers of reception have came on and said that only a small number of their students aren’t toilet trained. It’s just hyperbole to make parents feel shit.

Starmer doesn’t really understand what’s going on in Britain. Just so clueless.

Well it obviously isn’t working well as kids aren’t being toilet trained

Let's be honest about one of the biggest causes - all of us parents have mobile phones.

We are on them quite a lot. We think we aren't, that it isn't enough to matter, but we are and it does.

Aside from disabilities, the biggest reason for a child to have good listening and speaking skills is how much they are talked to. Directly. By other humans. Screens don't count, they don't help with this.

The amount of time we spend speaking to preschoolers has dropped. Anyone who's worked in early years since the mid 90s will tell you this

We also use screens to entertain them when out and about. They aren't learning how to be bored. They aren't learning how to engage in their surroundings the way children before smart phones were.

So as well as th toilet training issue we have children who can't follow instructions, can't keep still without endless distractions and can't play cooperatively because they've missed out of hundreds of hours of socialising they'd have received in previous generations.

My personal opinion is that 4 is too young to start school. I know it would be very expensive, so never going to happen, but I think keeping children in a nursery setting longer would allow time for social and physical development and for SEND to be noticed and addressed.
Nursery has twice the space and half the children. Back in my day nursery also had 2 qualified early years staff. No idea if that is still the case. IME going into reception is quite socially challenging and stressful for an only just 4 year old.
If it was up to me I would make 6 the legal age to be in school.

If he is fed up how does he think the teachers feel? There will be genuine reasons why a child might not be school ready, as you have mentioned OP. When a child has additional needs that they are born with, or may later develop, this is not the same as those who do not know the basics due to parents not teaching them. If a child is not potty trained and there is not a physical reason for this, then this is unacceptable. It is not up to school to do this. Most children should be able to master the basics. If a child is in childcare I don't know what would happen re potty training? Would the nursery deal with this as the child is with them.most of the day? OP I think most people who say they have an issue with kids not being school ready are talking about poor parenting, not parents who are doing what they should be doing.

SEN also doesnt always prevent potty training! DC1 didn't get their formal diagnosis until they were 9, and took bloody ages to potty train, later than usual (see also sleeping) but with support from nursery got there by school age. I'm not massively keen on this idea that SEN parents go 'oh well' and don't try (which is obviously not true but you see quite a bit of it on MN) and also that all kids with SEND aren't capable of any of the school readiness stuff. Having SEND doesn't mean you can't do anything.

Expectations are already pretty bloody low for children with SEND from the system, let's not add to it eh?