Botox & frozen faces

What was interesting was how many people told her they could tell because of the "sheen" on her forehead. It was the camera flash! And where did these bozos get the idea that Botox gives you a sheen

It's a well-known side effect. Google botox shine.

If the anti Botox crowd really believed that we all look like shit and may as well have BOTOX tattooed across our stretched foreheads, they wouldn't be so angry about it.

There was a brave and attractive young woman on one of these I'm-just-so-worried-about-you-vapid-hags threads a few years ago. She posted a photo of her lovely face and encouraged the pitchforkers to guess what she'd had done. They fell on her of course, telling her how plumped and stretched and shiny she looked and how it was SO OBVIOUS she'd had lip filler and forehead Botox. Except it turned out she hadn't. All she had had was a bit of cheek filler following serious illness (she had had chemo, if memory serves).

What was interesting was how many people told her they could tell because of the "sheen" on her forehead. It was the camera flash! And where did these bozos get the idea that Botox gives you a sheen and makes light come out of your head? It smooths out wrinkles, it doesn't make you bloody radioactive!

I think its perfectly valid to consider societal expectations of female beauty. Where it gets pretty uncomfortable for me as a woman who wants to support women is the way any conversation about injectables seem to veer into blaming and insulting women's appearance under the guise of feminism.
For all the hyperbolic language about botox (It's a POISON! Well, yup, it's right there in the name!) it's actually a pretty low risk treatment. And since time began people of both sexes have done all manner of things to enhance their appearance often involving something less than optimum for health. Restrictive diets, piercings, high heels, corsets, tattoos, punishing gym schedules, diets overloaded with more protein than kidneys can safely handle...
Injectables are no different in principle to any other thing human beings do to make themselves look 'nice'. And ideally, to follow the argument to its logical conclusion, we shouldn't do any of them, or care whether we look good or not unless we're 'insecure'. Yet I bet there's few on this thread who never try to look good, be it hair style, clothes or make up.
Botox is therefore just a further stage along the same continuum pretty much every one of us is on. Yet people like the OP have taken it upon themselves to draw a line at their own comfort level. Putting holes in your ear lobes/nostrils is ok, putting Injectables in your face is not.
They then try to impose their arbitrary line on other women with a two pronged approach of trying to make them feel guilty for being a bad influence, and telling them their appearance is unsightly. And that's where it goes wrong and the validity of the discussion is compromised.

I am in my fifties and been having botox twice a year. Started 3 years ago and i love it. I look fresher and I dont have the frozen look. Friends have told me my skin looks nice and I feel great.

Do you not use any anti ageing creams / retinols etc?

Even using moisturiser which is intended to keep the skin hydrated, supple and youthful Is just a less extreme way of holding back the clock than botox,

It really depends what you mean by debate. If you mean, do I support someone coming on here and saying “I’m interested in weight loss injections, but worried about the side effects - how has anyone found them?” Or “I’m thinking about Botox but I’m worried I’ll lose too much expression”. Then I 100% support that.

If you’re talking about someone saying “I would never get Botox and I think women who get Botox look horrific, plastic and expressionless - do you agree?” - I don’t support this. I think it’s fuelling the patriarchal rhetoric that women’s bodies (especially ageing women’s bodies) are objects for scrutiny, judgement and derision.

Agree. It’s so disingenuous to say that the ‘average’ man is getting botox as commonly as women. Celebs, some wealthy City workers, influencers etc yes. But most ordinary men are not getting botox, lip fillers etc in the same numbers that women are. It is very odd to suggest otherwise.

It’s no one else’s business what someone else puts in or on their own body - whether that’s Botox, junk food/carbs, weight-loss injections

Do you think it’s wrong to debate the role of botox and other invasive cosmetic procedures. Should it be a no-go topic? Does a discussion about it mean ‘tearing down’ women?

Touché

I take you point.

Yeah, you really needed my help to accuse women who get Botox of being vain, selfish, unattractive, terrible for children, snobbish and generally morally dubious. Does anyone believe that?

PM me. I won't tell anyone. Tell me your area and I will find a reputable Botox practitioner local to you. I cannot stand this hypocritical, self-awareness-free blowhardness any longer. For all of us, just get the 11s done. You will be so disappointed at what a big deal it isn't and I promise you can still watch sunsets and do yoga and love your husband or whatever the hell you think it takes from you.

I absolutely agree that women being told to age gracefully is the flip side of the coin. But the pressure to look young is also bad. Basically, women can't win whatever they do 🤷

Plenty men do - but it doesn’t get commented on.

Because it’s only women’s bodies and choices that others feel entitled to judge, mock and criticise. It’s only women who are told how they should “age gracefully”.

That is the real societal issue with the beauty industry - the patriarchal judgement (and sense of entitlement to do so) when it comes to women’s bodies.

When I go there’s always men in the waiting room!

Accused of being a free speech advocate? It’s really not an accusation is it?

I’ve made my opinion clear if you want to have a look back. My opinion is just that though, my opinion. I don’t expect everyone to agree or even care.

You are continually being passive aggressive and rehashing different versions same argument. I’m not continually bashing you and claiming otherwise. I’m happy to own it. I think you are judgemental and consider your opinion the right one and as such feel superior to those who don’t agree with you. I stand by it.

Some men do ofc, but the beauty industry is vastly and overwhelming targeted at women, particular anything anti-ageing.

Men do get botox though and have cosmetic procedures. There was also the meme of a plane full of bald men coming back from Turkey after their hair implants.

So whilst I’m saying the beauty standard is as high or the numbers are equal. It’s quite a dim view to say men also don’t spend 100s on beauty.

Honestly though this topic is weird. I don’t care what anyone else chooses to do with their face or body.

Increasing numbers of men do so I’m not sure where to go with your question.

These procedures do make a difference to others, though. I can't lipread or get the general gist of something said when the face, lips, cheeks, eyes, eyebrows and forehead doesn't move in the way an unmodified face does. Amplifying doesn't solve it, it distorts it, particularly when the individual sounds are also less clear due to the reduced mobility.

And if that's not of any interest to anyone else, maybe babies and children being unable to learn to discern meanings from non-verbal cues - as is normal for child development and language acquisition - could be something worth considering? If people think back to how they communicate with babies, it's very mobile; their focal range is specifically evolved to be able to see all of those expressions and tiny movements, the ones that are deemed to cause undesirable evidence of expression and emotion over time.

Something else that also occurs to me is something that's sometimes said about autism - that the person is 'creepy' or 'emotionless' - which is linked to expressions. That's how vital normal/standard/expected facial expression is, that the absence of usual movements leads human instinct to place people in a category of being different and potentially a risk to safety. It's also something that negatively affects people with facial differences. I think that this is part of the reason why some have such a strong response to it; the results actually trigger a sense of danger/untrustworthiness.

Is it actually worth conforming to external (patriarchal) determined parameters of attractiveness (ie, is she or does she look young enough to fuck? And if so, is there any way she could look even younger than that?) when it actively affects others, particularly children, in a negative way?

It's not a new concept, but I don't think that makes it okay. I don't care on an individual basis what anyone is doing with their body. I care about the fact a lot of beauty standards are directly driven by patriarchy. Does it truly not bother you that men don't feel the need to spend 100s on beauty treatments, or inject chemicals into their lips?

I'm not the one who started a thread creating a moral catastrophe around a piddling, 20+ years old cosmetic procedure because I can't resolve my desire to get it with my ridiculous belief that it's a moral failing.

Just get the bloody Botox and do us all a favour. And yes, go somewhere good with reputable practitioners. Better a snob than a fucking idiot.