To think that you can absolutely buy consent

True @ginasevern

It would be a great start to not sell our bodies to men out of choice though wouldn't it. If all women stopped 'choosing' (as @boredwfh claims) to sell their bodies then at the very least all men would know they are committing rape if they pay for sex. They would know for sure the woman they just paid for was trafficked and their sperm dump was into a very vulnerable human being.

I don't think that was the question though.

The question was can a woman consent, not are all women consenting.

Different question, Different answer

@blueliner "The more women that agree to men penetrating them for cash or watching them undress around a pole the more it normalises the idea women are there for men’s enjoyment. I really wish women who have free choice would consider this point."

This I do agree with. But I think you'll find that men (whether we dance around a pole or not) will always see us as sex objects to a greater or lesser extent. I think most women would be horrified to think that their lovely and supportive male friend, given the opportunity, wouldn't think twice about shagging her for example.

Great, and back in the real world, how do you check if someone is being trafficked/coerced or not? You can't. The issue is not women selling their consent, it's men not knowing if someone is truly consenting or not, and doing it anyway.

It seems that some people, on mumsnet at least, fail to comprehend how consent can be coerced and that coerced consent is not consent at all.

It seems that on mumsnet at least, the dictionary defnition of consent has changed cos some posters don't like the idea of a woman accepting payment for sex.

Let's all remind ourselves of the real dictionary definition shall we

1. permission for something to happen or agreement to do something.

So if a woman agrees to have sex, be it for money or some other transactional benefit, in the non mumsnet world this woudl be consensual.

And don't get me started on sugar daddy/baby arrangements.

That sounds incredibly challenging but hopefully rewarding in some instances too.

Depends how you define consent. If you think of it allowing oneself to be used for someone else's gratification, regardless of your own wishes to have sex with the person, then yes, you can buy that. If you think of it as enthusiastic proactive desire to engage in the act for the act itself, which we teach our children it is, then no you can't buy that. You are just buying permission to by pass consent.

Because men hold the vast majority of the power in the world. Men are predatory towards women because many do not see women as human beings, rather sex objects for their 'needs'.

1 in 4 women will be sexually assaulted or raped in their lifetime by men.

Men earn more, spend less on their appearance and hold the majority of positions of power.

Unfortunately, women who strip for money objectify not just themselves but all women as a sex class because they perpetuate the idea that women are objects to be viewed and paid for, as opposed the whole human beings.

My point was other work with risks has mitigation. HSE, training, personal protective gear, psychological assessment, access to counselling. Chaperoning if alone with vulnerable or dangerous people. Look at the precautions nurses use to take a simple blood sample.

Of course there are still incidents and a long way to go in many industries but there is no way sex work would pass the most basic of risk assessments.

Really shouldn't have had to explain that.

I don't think there's a simple straightforward answer here because consent and its conditions are going to be highly personal to each individual and what they're being asked to consent to.

There are then wider moral / philosophical and legal layers on top of that of course.

For what it's worth, my opinion is that it is theoretically possible for women to consent to sex work but that is very sadly going to be a small minority.

We all have our boundaries. I was a lap dancer not an escort who had sex. But mumsnetters like to lump all sex work in as the same. My consent was to dance partially or fully nude in exchange for money. I declined to have sex for money many times. Some people are more comfortable to offer those services & that’s ok for them if that’s their boundaries. If my daughter chose to do the same I’d provide my support & advice from my experience. I could hardly be a hypocrite now could I?

,

How?

And you and your friends negatively impacted other women as a sex class.

Agree. My lived experience. I’m from a middle class background, no poverty or trauma or addictions. I worked a corporate 9-5 job earning £30k plus at the time. A lot of my fellow sex worker friends (lap dancers) were studying degrees & are now lawyers, work in finance, are nurses. Some are SAHM, for whom the job works for them around the kids and pays well. We weren’t coerced. The club I worked at has a lot of the same girls that were there a decade or more ago! I went back myself once a couple years ago for a laugh & a reminisce. I’ve on occasion gone back just to have drinks with all my friends. Honestly best days of my life & made life long friends.

So if you have a daughter, would you be ok with her shagging dirty old men ...because she'd be having the last laugh?

And quite frankly we had little respect for the men! As I said we saw the men as money. We took the piss out of them. Who were the stupid one’s? I’d say the men that kept coming back because they thought we had a real connection & would fall in love with us. i counted my money at the end of the night & was very happy. Consent given, money made.

So although these people may have been trafficked & be working against their will / without true consent that’s ok. Cos it’s not sex. Therefore it’s ok for the woman that use these nail services without truly knowing if their nail lady is working after having been trafficked but it’s not ok for their husbands or just men in general to go to a lap dancing club cos they can’t possibly know if that lap dancer is trafficked.

How do people consent to participate in (and give their data to) clinical trials that they’re getting paid to be a part of then? Genuinely interested in your answer from this POV.

I think your question is completely irrelevant to be honest OP, because ultimately there is no way of knowing if the woman is trafficked or coerced, so any time you pay, even if you believe you can buy consent, you are potentially raping someone, and if that's something you're OK with, then you don't really care about consent anyway.

Doing nails etc is quite a bit different than sucking a smelly cock and being raped

So absolutely none of the woman on here against sex work for reasons of trafficking have used, or do use Vietnamese nail salons? Ok.

No, not at all.
You know what they say about assumptions...

You only have to read what punters say about prostitutes on ukpunting to see how little respect they have for the women.