To think that you can absolutely buy consent

Thanks for the point-missing mansplain.

Choice is complicated: https://x.com/nordicmodelnow/status/1972919916949856527

https://nordicmodelnow.org/facts-about-prostitution/fact-choice-is-complicated/

There are really two questions here which keep being conflated and confused.

One is as a general concept whether consent can be bought, and of course it absolutely can. Otherwise all work would be slavery. It can even be bought when the person selling it hasn't really got any other options due to their own circumstances (ie poverty, as opposed to external coercion). Once again, I give you work, especially low-waged work.

The second question is whether prostitution is so harmful to women/society as to necessitate it being banned, aka the government forbidding the consensual sale of sexual services.

While that is an interesting debate in itself, it has no connection to the first question, which is the topic of this thread.

@blueliner, I agree somewhat but I do think this is stripping women of their agency a bit. Men earn more mainly because they tend to gravitate to higher-paid jobs, work longer hours & take fewer career breaks. Obvs it's hard to combine thus satisfactorily with kids but I don't think acting as if only men have the power to change the situation is very helpful.

Men holding the majority of positions of power- I'd give same reply as above. Also, this IS changing.

Women spending more on their appearance- can't we control that? Do you mean that you think we HAVE to to get boyfriends and be treated well in the workplace? True somewhat, but is that a status quo to be content with? I've seen women on here say it's not fair to split the bill bc they spend so much on their appearance. But IS it necessary? Are men demanding this?

Surely putting so much money into appearance plays into objectification?

The recent book Wink Wink Nudge Nudge by Brooke Urich makes the world of sugar babies sound very exploitative

. I guess sugar babies open a can of worms about whether women who marry for gold-digging purposes are consenting...?

That's not my question

The question is, can a woman consent to such an arrangement

REGARDLESS of whether ypu personally are in favour of such a thing

Oh, come on. You can't be suggesting that women who think prostitution's bad for people would be in favour of 'sugar daddy' arrangements!

Ah ok! That's nice to hear, so many on this thread refuse to believe a woman can consent to sex transactionally, wonder what they would say about sugar daddy/ baby arrangements.

I agree with you! Sorry, I should have linked to this:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy

Motte and bailey is a type of defensive fortification, not a firm of solicitors.

And society takes away agency all the time for actions that are judged harmful. You can't sell a kidney, or ride a motorbike without a helmet just because you want to.

Fewer than 10% of sex workers are trafficked, not the majority. That’s a myth. It’s interesting that this is an area where people absolutely refuse to listen to the women they claim they are trying to protect (apart from if those women agree with them, which most don’t).
“That’s completely different” doesn’t wash because different people see sex differently. Why is it not wrong for someone to pay me to massage them, involving me touching their body, but if I give them a blow job or hand job then it’s always wrong and I can’t consent to it?

Well, yes.

So what, so two people who I've never heard of say that its different 'quantitatively'/ 'qualitatively' and no one else can say otherwise?

No one is saying its the same, just that consent can be applied ( in certain circumstances) to both

As I said upthread, if I was offered a million pounds for a shag, I'd consent to that and you can't take away my agency by saying I couldn't.

“It’s outrageous to compare prostitution with stacking shelves!”

Motte: sex work is quantitatively more gruelling than stacking shelves.

Bailey: sex work is qualitatively different from all other work and therefore consent cannot be bought.

But then by that logic no one consents to a job, especially ones with a big power imbalance.

I am v against 'sex work is work', but I don't think this argument holds up.

First hand accounts - do you have any books/websites that you would recommend that give reliable accounts? I find a lot of accounts, at least the ones I've come across, seem to give an unrealistically rosy picture.

Excellent post and spot on!

Anyone comparing sex work to other jobs where there’s an exchange of money must have very little understand of the degrading and relentless toll prostitution has on a woman both physically and mentally. The first hand accounts I have read about are unbelievably horrific. Day in day out abuse, bodily damage.

Women’s bodies cannot cope with constant sex and that is before any abusive violence that occurs so often for them. Many are in constant pain.

I can’t believe you even compared working at ASDA to being in anyway a similar having men abuse your internal body day in day out under such awful circumstances, many are trafficked.😡

This was in response to a poster who claimed she freely chose to strip for money and all her friends were happy to do it.

I totally agree the issue is men. Especially as the vast percentage of of sex workers are trafficked or vulnerable women.

Because every study shows having sex for money even if it’s ‘free choice’ isn’t really choice. There is a fundamental difference between doing other things for money and having a man buy your consent to use your body.
If you read some of the research it really messes up the mental well being of women even if they ‘freely’ choose.

Ah, come on now, it’s a completely different thing. There should be absolutely no legitimisation of an “industry” where most of the “workers” are trafficked and vulnerable women and CHILDREN. You can not separate the “sex work is work” crowd out. It is the thin end of the wedge. This is very high on my list of what is unpalatable about the modern “pick-me” society.

That's terrible. My understanding was that the punter sites are mainly the worst clients who all but the most vulnerable/desperate say no to, so it would make sense they'd agree.. 😢

Naïve. And, yes, it is. If you ever feel brave enough to read punter review sites, you'll see regular complaints about women with wound packing in their bums 😢

Most don't do anal I thought? At least I hope not, it's so dangerous.