To think men don’t actually want equality in relationships, they just want women to do both roles?

We are equal, different yes, but equal

Ultimately it’s women that wanted equality not men so we’ve dug ourselves a massive hole by wanting it all!!!

We're not having it all

We're doing it all

That's the crux of it.

A lot of men just want an easy life. Putting in little effort comes so easily.
IME that involves wanting me to work and pay half the bills, but do everything else in relation to the home, kids, life admin etc. When that wasn’t ok with me my ex found himself divorced. Since then the single men either resent my career and earning potential (which is often more than theirs) and still want a homemakers whilst enjoying me paying my share.
Equality for me isn’t splitting everything but it’s a fair division based on skills and what needs to be done.
If I can find a man who understands that, then I’ll give up my single life. Until then, I don’t have a man leaching off me and life is good.

@Lammveghas it. They have different interests.

The good thing is that men like this are relatively easy to bin.

There are a pleasing number of threads about dysfunctional relationships where you think about the male partner, "What exactly is he for?". It's nice to realise that many OPs can ditch the deadwood relatively easily and move forward unencumbered. The sadder threads are the ones where there is obviously a long journey back up to financial independence.

On dating threads a lot of women seem to fetishise traditional gender roles and men being providers/protectors but then seem shocked when those men aren't so much into housework and domesticity, so maybe that's the equivalent of not actually wanting equality?

The only answer is to hold the line when it comes to the equality you want in a relationship, and not to let men get away with this attitude (or just don't date these particular ones in the first place). But if you want to do away with HIS traditional gender opinions then you have to do away with yours too.

It always amazes me how I see these issues talked about as the default on MN when that's not reflected among people I know at all. Most of my social circle have ended up with the form of relationship equality that they wanted. It didn't just happen, they had to do it consciously, from picking a compatible partner to continuously holding firm about what they wouldn't put up with etc.

I think you might want to learn the difference between “same” and “equal”

You don't have to have multiple children with men like that though, especially if he makes it clear with the first one how it's going to be like. That can make it easier to leave than having sometimes 3, 4, 5 children with a man like that.

Once you have kids you are pretty hobbled as to what you have to put up with. It’s the children that change the relationship and women don’t realise this until they have them.

You again, OP?

I agree, imo my husband and myself do an equal share but we both have similar standards, which is we don't want to live in a filthy house so we force ourselves to do a bit but I would say it's not up to the standards of a lot of mumsnetters!

Dunno about majority, but the type certainly exists.

I’ve never heard any men saying they want an equal partner or equality in a relationship. Surely that’s what women say!

Maybe women should have a female partner, and males men, should just be sperm donors, if women want to have children. At least women having female partners, would be equal

This absolutely nails it for me.

What I am less clear about is why so many men can’t seem to do the forward thinking.

Is it because mothers instinctively take that on and start off a pattern where they do the planning and make things happen so that fathers never bother to think or learn to be proactive?

Is it because they haven’t evolved to feel responsible (in a fundamental way) for their children? Do they always feel that they can do the bits they want to do/remember, knowing that they have a backstop of the mother who really bears the responsibility?

My DSis has just separated and is having to co-parent. He loses the toddler’s shoes, forgets to change her nappy, is late getting the others to school - without their book bags or homework. Why is he incapable of doing this without DSis’s constant prompting?! He’s a highly successful professional. What is the blind spot? Weaponised incompetence?

How do we (fathers too) parent boys to tackle this?

I heard an interesting interview on Woman's Hour about this where they said there have been studies that if a man has grown up with a mum who worked they are generally fine with their wife working. If they have had a SAHM they are much more likely to get depressed if their wife works and they don't or if their wife gets a higher salary.

Men haven't evolved but it's also what they've been used to seeing. I know a lot of mums who baby their boys, presumably to feel useful in themselves, which just enables another generation of confused men no one wants to date with weak egos.

As an aside - my dad had to bring me up and no I never had a hair cut or new clothes. My Aunt took pity and gave my cousin's hand me downs but we were completely different sizes. I still don't know what illnesses I had all through childhood or basic information most mum's would know and remember.

There’s nothing to say that women have to put up with men like this though.

I am seeing this as a big problem among my friends - all well-educated women with well-paid jobs. They’ve all been brought up with the expectation they’ll work and earn equally to men.

I know their husbands well - all are good guys, friends of mine, people I respect.

But… they all seem to be having this issue. The work outside the household is equal and sums of money brought in comparable… yet the home / domestic / child stuff seems to mainly fall to them.

This leaves them exasperated and resentful - and exhausted.

I think women were brought up with this ‘new mindset’, but men often weren’t - and saw their mum doing the lions share at home and just kind of assume it will be the same / haven’t really considered what their role is in this.

We sometimes ponder about what would happen if we weren’t here. Would clothes be updated as they grew? Would they have the right shoes? Would school visits be arranged? Would they have managed to get a nursery place? What would they eat? At what point would haircuts be booked etc etc.

Usually, if you treat someone nicely and with respect, you’ll get that in return.
In my experience, men who complain about not being treated well by women is because they don’t treat women well.
On the other hand, I see women really trying to be nice and accommodating, doing everything they can to try to have a good relationship and family life, and men still treat them like crap.

I think generally people who significantly underperform in relationships look to have their spouse act as a parent figure towards them rather than a partner so they do not need to engage in adult responsibilities and actions. They want someone to serve them and care for them in a childlike way. Often one partner in these relationships dynamics gets to control the dynamics and the other gets child like dependency.

The worst most toxic situation is the one where the person underperforms and wants to control the dynamics too, the best situation is where both partners perform and both partners participate equally in decision making.

I think this last 50 years has seen significant evolution from many women in having a dependency on men in this way but much, much less so from men.

There is a significant push back from the most under performing men that women would go back to being underperforming and being underdeveloped too so they don’t have to grow up.

With the bill paying on a first date...I think for a lot of men who are happy to split the bill, they don't genuinely care about equality...their mindset is, well you women wanted equality so you can have it. It's a mean spirited, you asked for it type attitude rather than truly caring about men and women being equal

Yes it’s amazing how many men seem to think a few “once in a while, and then it’s done” tasks equal out huge lists of relentless, several times a day, never done tasks.

And bring in a big salary

Absolutely, that's true, I acknowledged it's not equal, but he took on the tasks I was uncomfortable with and I did the ones that were important to me, and that as how I liked it.

During a brief period when I worked more than he did, he took on much more of the child and home stuff and I really didn't enjoy that.