To think men don’t actually want equality in relationships, they just want women to do both roles?

The way the conversation has shifted from 'out working x hours' to how much they earn, shows that it's always about elevating them and denigrating the woman. It used to be about how many hours 'he' worked but now it's very clear that women often work equal hours in the workplace and in fact work more hours overall when you take in domestic work and childcare. Now, because men often still earn more after children, it's become about how money he earns and this somehow elevates his non-working time to prime importance.

There's a reason there's a massive thread with over 300 comments last time I saw it about how women just cannot be fucked with this any more. Bringing in money, working outside the home, and still picking up the lions share of domestic labour - there's no partnership in that. It's not just that but honestly I don't think there is a group of people in the world that whinges more than men, and they're ultimately whining about being expected to be able to do basic tasks. I read a post on social media about a guy losing his mind because when he gets in from work his wife hands him the baby and goes to pump for an hour while watching TV and he couldn't stand that she watches TV. He bought her a different pump to try to get her to do chores in that hour while she pumped. He wanted her to do this - pump, do housework and mind the baby so HE could relax and do literally nothing. He actively stated he didn't believe that she finds pumping painful.

I'm also currently reading The Wife Drought and the more a woman works outside the home and the more she earns, the MORE housework she picks up. If a husband is unemployed, he does LESS housework. The research on this is mental. There's not a soul on this planet that can justifiably criticise women for being very, very firm in their boundaries about the terms they will get involved with men on.

Then again I don’t see that at all. As an example DH drops our youngest at school the days I don’t WFH, of the 9 instances one or other of the DC does a club/activity he does 6 of them, he does all meals and anything related to that, he does all the ironing and a good chunk of the washing.

My friends all seem to split things, one of them her DH even essentially gave up his career so she could pursue a business she setup.

Most women I know are the higher earner, do the lion's share of the domestic tasks and ALL of them do the most home admin/ life organisation and keep the whole sodding show on the road and WE ARE ALL VERY TIRED.

Honestly don't know what the fuck the men are all doing with their time. Cycling and listening to podcasts mostly.

They are getting worse. The young women at work 20/25 do everything at home. Their partners simply refuse to do it. My dad born in 1930 did more, my ex did more than my dad but for some reason we are going backwards.
One particular woman I’m thinking of, her partner does nothing. Less than nothing she works just as many hours if not more and he will not do even the most basic.
My mum used to say ‘you get what you put up with’. The question is why put up with it. Not married, no children.

When are men expected to take responsibility for their own actions?

This is absolutely spot on.

A lot of men have cannily identified that they are beneficiaries of greater participation of women entering the workforce in large numbers not because it equalises the relationship but because it allows them to outsource absolutely everything to the women.

I think there's just a lot of laziness, and I think that it's compounded because there is a different comparison between a mum doing everything for their son, and a mum doing everything for their daughter - I don't have the language to explain it, but there's an other-ness to the son/mother relationship, whereas a she-is-me to the daughter/mother relationship.

So male partners treating letting their female partners do it all beds in with the mother doing everything for me bit of their brain, whereas for a woman, she empathises with her mother, and so wouldn't let a female partner do everything.

Perhaps I'm not explaining it well. But I just think that there's a fundamentally different and detrimental to women dynamic.

Obviously massive generalisation, and there'll be outliers everywhere, but that's just my experience, as a woman who doesn't really want to live with one of the run of the mill men ever again (and is trying to raise her sons to be considerate of the other members of the household)

Completely agree.
Men will let you do as much as you take on.

I’m happy, I’m content, I have no complaints - more than can be said for others 🙂

Dear gdyou must have a miserable life

Not all men of course

i I guess it’s how they are brought up

primarily as you say by women

why not ask why are women raising such needy boys

ah tin hat needed

As an aside - my dad had to bring me up and no I never had a hair cut or new clothes. My Aunt took pity and gave my cousin's hand me downs but we were completely different sizes. I still don't know what illnesses I had all through childhood or basic information most mum's would know and remember.

I really hope that if anything happened to me, my ExDp would have done better by our daughter. He was rubbish about things like chasing homework though, so who knows.

Well we hear on here 'my partner has decided I am to be a sahm so I just go along witj it ans dont thinl myself'

So not sure overall but women dont have to 'do it all' they chose too, they chose the partner and have children with them and complain about it a lot but just keep on doing it

I presume they had long and deep discussions about it all and how it was all going to work when deciding to have a child with someone and didn't blindly go into it blindly

When we meet a man, our nurturing side often comes out. A year on, the woman thinks " why am I doing so much?" while the man just thinks it's how life is. I've told my kids not to pander to a partner unless they want that as their forever role.

A close male relative- who frankly is a lazy arse ( no cooking, cleaning, shopping, despite being early retired), was bemoaning the fact his working wife does not want to swing from the chandeliers when she's finished a day at work, on her feet all day. I said to take over some home tasks or it will never change. You'd think I had set fire to the house. He just did not see it.

Goodness, what a ghastly thought!

Same.

I tell myself to remember that I am an open-minded person, different strokes for different folks etc, but when someone tells me they value traditional gender roles, in my head I react as if they've told me they're into a particularly gross kink.

Yeah, poor didfums. 🙄

Also don’t forget men are so much more visual, so they are all about a woman’s looks

yet they are not that visual when they fail to see so many jobs that need doing

weaponised incompetence is not hot

Men have got so much worse since the 70s
can’t see what good it’s really done all the women working and doing everything at home
just put up the houses prices to insane levels and women are just run ragged now doing it all rather than having it all

Oh and my DH is domesticated, his Mum taught him to be so plus he loves cooking way more than me so when he's around he likes to cook the dinner! In my experience they are not mutually exclusive, i.e. he is worried about not earning and providing enough for the kids but doesn't assume some power with that.

I literally can’t imagine how someone could look at themselves in the mirror and bleat ‘I’m glad a married a provider and protector’ without dying of mortification.

I’m glad I married a provider and protector. My DH is perfectly domesticated but there’s plenty of women out there who value traditional roles.

It wasn't a declaration in my DH's case, he isn't that vulgar, it is nothing to do with the modern day take on this. It has always been there but it is subtle and it is a nervousness, a social expectation due to his background probably. My brother is similar and I have friends with husbands that are the same, the women like me are not beholden to them and they wouldn't dare declare it, it is just a thing. But I have grown a life from my twenties with my DH now both of us early to mid 40s, it is therefore not a dating tactic or some such bollox!

The men I've encountered who were negative about me being child-free were not the same men who were happily child-free themselves. 100% of the judgmentalism for being child-free has come from parents (and frankly way more women than men).

Absolutely.

I also think it's hilarious how many men are obsessed with women being gold diggers and having to make sure that whoever they're dating is not after their money. Now if a man is a billionaire with luxury homes around the world and a yacht, I can see their point. But an average Joe living in a rented one bed flat with a standard office job and a ford fiesta on finance....give me a break 😂