Starmer’s support for Palestine

A bit unfair that one. The official IRA that was the ideology of the elected 1918 Dail split from the provisional IRA that carried out the campaign of violence in 1969. IRA terrorism, as as most would understand it, was by the Provisional IRA. The Official IRA rejected armed struggle in 1971. The Provisional IRA and their political wing never gained power in any political institutions in Nothern Ireland or the Republic, prior to the 1998 Good Friday Agreement and their cease fire. They still haven't been in National Government in the Republic. So if you consider the IRA period of violence against the British State post 1969 as terrorism by a different IRA than 1918, it didn't get any election results.

Also if that’s you’re line of thinking the only solution (the final solution.. sounds familiar) is total of eradication of Muslims, not just in Gaza. Because all that’s happening is you are creating an atmosphere where people are going to want retribution for their family/homeland/people.

If you want the eradication of terrorise this isn’t the way to do it.

that’s how they get them. They take marginalised people (Muslim kids who feel like outsiders in the community they live in) and they say “look what they did to your people, look at all the people who turned away, no one cares about you” and they indoctrinate them

THIS ISNT GOING TO END TERRORISM

Yeah I’m not sure you’re getting my point?

Every country recognises Irish statehood. And have done since the early 1920s. Even though that state came about following a campaign that in modern language was a terrorist campaign.

The posters claiming that recognising statehood rewards terrorism need to ask themselves if they would also deny statehood for Ireland and other countries whose foundation was linked in whole or in part to terrorism.

Agreed.

It feels to me that Starmer’s just doing what all those other countries are doing in recognising a Palestinian state. Jumping on the bandwagon. Like when he went down on one knee for Black Lives Matter.

This. The wilful detachment from reality some people appear to be operating under is staggering.

This. The wilful detachment from reality some people appear to be operating under is staggering.

I am not actually Jewish as in I don’t practice Judaism, however I have a long line of Jewish ancestry. My father’s side of the family came to ROI after being displaced in the Second World War (as Jewish Romani).. many of my wider family still practice Judaism.

NONE of us are supporting the actions of Israel.

It isn’t one or the other. What is happening now is a genocide and looking away is akin to those who looked away during the holocaust.

I really had hoped never again meant never again. Obviously not.

What do you propose as an alternative?

Hamas have celebrated the decision today. They see it as a victory.

As for pp I’m not sure how this brings peace closer.

I am equivocal about the idea of recognising a Palestinian State. It doesn't do much in many ways and the two-state.solution has been turned down continually since Arafat's days (tbf, that was a rubbish deal, though he was also corrupt).

What i am disgusted by though is that this recognition was not dependent on anything except bizarrely NOT agreeing a ceasefire.

How can any government that paints itself as caring not tie this recognition to the surrender of any and all hostages. These are civilians; non-combatants, and held in defiance of every single statute out there, and who have been tortured and starved throughout, even before the removal of the Palestinian aid organisation.

So supporting Palestine is wrong? Explain.

Of course there’s an element of revenge in what Israel are doing. They are trying to bring down the regime who entered their country, not to attack government buildings or the IDF, but to act like cowards and take out some young festival goers. But they are also then saving the Palestinians from the regime who are treating the people they claim to represent so badly.

If it doesn't achieve anything why is Netanyahu so vehemently against it. Even Rubio has threatened countries that recognize Palestine.

Hamas agreed to the last ceasefire which led to the release of the hostages a deal that Israel had agreed to a month previously but then Netanyahu changed the conditions and bombed Qatar.

Gvir himself has said he has sabotaged Hamas ceasefire deals and Matt Miller said Netanyahu also sabotaged them. He never wanted a ceasefire because then Trump's plan of redevelopment would not be carried out.

Hamas orchestrated the October 7th attacks knowing full well the hell that Netanyahu would unleash on the innocent people of Gaza. Hamas wanted this reaction from the world. It wanted their people to suffer. It wanted terror. Now Starmer has just played right into their hands.

Israelis deserve peace, Gazan Palestinians certainly deserve peace. Neither will ever be allowed to live side by side peacefully and without the threat of violence so long as they continue to be governed by barbaric, war mongering monsters. We can all agree on that surely.

Why is the phrase 'Wrong side of history' so prevalent in these very divided topics?

The people using that phrase always seem so sure they are on the 'right side', which always rings an alarm bell for me - mistaking opinion for fact, the Dunning Kruger effect, echo chamber thinking - pick your phrase. Anyway, any time I hear someone say it, I think hmmmm totally lacking in any humility or critical thinking - and overly worried about looking good.

@GladioliGreen "Where are Israels borders? "

Here - https://ontheworldmap.com/israel/large-detailed-map-of-israel.html

OP I completely agree with you. It’s a sad day for all parties involved. This will bring the Palestinians even further from the actual government they should have, the only ones winning are Hamas. I don’t know why anyone is celebrating unless you believe Hamas should continue ruling Gaza. This could be a death sentence for the remaining hostages, I’m so sorry to their families.

if you scroll right back, (probably another ten pages by the time I finish this post), it was in context of a point that got brought up, and then discussed, and I was bringing the examples to explain my point. At this point the thread has moved on well away from that, so yes, now it's off topic ¯\(ツ)/¯

Israel arent trying to overthrow Hamas for the benefit of the Palestine people. They don't give two shits about them.

Exactly this. It’s a trade off. He welcomed and feted Trump whom the left in his party hate with a passion. To save his skin, he then has to pull something out of his arse to appease them, so by recognising a Palestinian state he has sold his soul to the devil, and keeps his position safe. For now…..

He doesn’t speak for me.

How can our government recognise a terrorist state? I’m appalled. Is Starmer bowing down to the loony lefties, the anti-Semitic party members left over from the Corbyn era?

I know everyone likes to call this a genocide but it's not. Technically it's a massacre and there's an important distinction.

A massacre is the mass killing of a large number of people, often with extreme cruelty, while genocide is a specific legal term defined by the intent to physically destroy a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group, in whole or in part. A massacre can be part of a genocide, but not all massacres are genocides, as genocide requires the specific intent to eliminate the group itself.

Israel's aim is the total destruction (genocide) of Hamas.
The massacre of Palestinian civilians is an awful byproduct of that aim, conducted in a densely populated area. Israel could stop, but so also could Hamas by laying down arms and returning the (bodies of the) hostages.

I don't think it has helped that generally the western world watched the murders and kidnappings on Oct 7 and almost immediately rejoiced with Hamas instead of standing by and weeping with Israel. Those things happened before Israel's horrific retribution that is claiming the lives of Israelis as well as Palestinians.

I think once we did that we lost any moral right to tell them how to retaliate and empowered the awful Netanyahu who can invoke the existential nature of the conflict.

If we had a government equal to Hamas then I would be asking other countries to save us from the hell they created. The Palestinians are as much victims of Hamas as they are of Israel. If my government stole aid meant for me and my family, and hid under my home using us as human shields, I would expect countries to try and overthrow our government, as Israel are trying to do.

@wrongthinkeryou are literally denying that there is a genocide going on but I’m the one that hateful. At least I won’t be on the wrong side of history.