To tell you that if a UK woman has not had her first child by 28, there is a 50% probability she will never have children.

If women are determined to have children, they need to get men to commit at a younger age. (Which should be easier, as women below the age of 30 have the upper hand in the dating market. 30 is the cross-over-age, after which men start to have the upper hand.)

That doesn’t fit with current society though. Once women were given the opportunity of equal education and sold a vision of ‘now that you have equal education, you can do whatever you want’, and that filtered down and solidified after a few generations, there has become a mismatch.

Previously, girls were ‘satisfied’ with a pathway of leaving school without having to have put much effort in (because why?), no further education, with the expectation all round that they would get married young, have children and hoover all day. Divorce was usually frowned upon, or not easy as it is today, so men could pretty much do anything they wanted and treat women however they wanted, and the women were stuck. But, that was all okay as women were ‘lucky’ enough to have a husband, have children and be able to spend the day hoovering. Then the concept of true equality of education hit and girls wanted to use that education.

So now, you have girls focusing on doing well at school and going in instead of marrying Brad down the road and pumping out babies the second they leave school. Then add in university. Then add in starting a career. Then add in getting established enough so that having children is not going to absolutely destroy it (although will likely derail and stall it), then add in time to then come up for car, look around and think of finding a partner. Given girls are now educated and savvy, most refuse to be sold a lie that you can ‘have it all’ with a satisfying career and family before 30yo, because for the vast majority it’s just impossible (and yes, acknowledging unicorns do exist but they are rare).

The other aspect, educated girls have clued onto is the cornerstone versus capstone relationship issue. Most accept, that if they partner young (before 30yo) and have a family, then that marriage is likely not going to last. Then there is the faffle with broken marriage, kids, trying to repartner, blended families, and trying to work all of that while maintaining a career that they want. Many have first hand experience of this or have seen it with friends families, been generally exposed to it in society. So, they are making the choice to wait for their ‘capstone’ relationship before having a family, with the preference to take the risk that it may mean no kids.

I believe the only way you can roll back society to women having children at a younger age now, would be to remove equality in education and the workforce which will and should never happen, otherwise the genie is out of the bottle, no stuffing it back in.

I am pretty sure that no country has reversed the falling birth rate trend once it's below replacement rate.

<vomit, not envy.

@RetiredMan I thought in the UK women who had dc were having fewer dc than they wanted as well as more women not having dc?

Dude, you are giving me seriously creepy vibes.

Shudders

When you take the time to properly understand the climate catastrophe a child born today will be facing it sadly seems a pretty selfish choice to make

Women who do become mothers are not having fewer children than before

This simply isn't true. The average number of children per mother in 1800 was 5.9. it's now 2.5.

Isn't there always a 50% probability that a woman won't have children? Either she will or she won't. 50-50.

I watched a documentary about this the night I conceived DS1.🙈 I was 34.

I was 45 when I had DS2.
Never stop being careful folks.

I think we need to take the potential children into consideration here too. In the dance hall scenario, everyone rushes to find a dance partner within the first few hours out of fear that they will miss out if they stay long? or others leave too early? But in ‘real life’ if there is too much pressure for women/men to couple up within the arbitrary timescale in order to beat the magical number (There are biological timescales but 26 or whatever it was is towards the earlier side) then there will be even more children growing up in unhappy homes with parents who don’t get on.

Isn't there always a 50% probability that a woman won't have children? Either she will or she won't. 50-50.

I can remember when women who decided to be child free were called insulting names like "old maid" or "spinster". You never hear these terms now and they have become as unacceptable as the "N" word. Now that the choice to be childfree carries minimal stigma many women are looking at the shitshow which is childbirth and parenting and rejecting it. I decided age 11 that I wanted no children and have never wavered from that sensible decision. I did not see how children were going to serve my interests in any meaningful way.

Is it in the women's best interest to be "persuaded"?

I'm all for making having children more affordable, so people would be able to act on their wishes, but persuasion sounds way too much to me.

God some men are tedious. "But whhhhhhyyyyyy???? But wwwwwhhhhhyyyyyyyyy???? How we can make sure more women decide to be all fertile and broody in their lovely fresh twenties when they are all properly fuckable?"

Mate, it's simple and it's been known about for years. The more educated the female population is, the fewer babies they have. And globally, women are more educated now.

Childbearing and childrearing is a huge commitment and money, and far too few societies adequately support women and compensate them for the overall risk to their long term financial security. So once we have a choice about it, a lot of us think Sod that for a game of solders and don't.

If you want that to change, get voting for things that protect mothers and incentivise motherhood. Either socialise childcare and the costs of childraising, or make men legally bound to support their children with both time and money before they get any time or money to spend on themselves.

I always dreamt of having two or three children but my first has special needs so there’s a higher chance another one would have the same. 😔
Plus, the state of the world at the moment makes me wonder why anyone would risk bringing children into it.

Having children is too expensive. I think it's as simple as that.

We need to 'get men to commit at a younger age'?

How do you suggest we go about that? By force? Bribery? Blackmail?

Young people of either sex don't have enough money or faith in the stability of the planet going forward to have a desire for children.

No-one is saying that women who don't want children should do so.

I think some people are actually.

I kind of agree that men are part of the problem

Kind of? You know how babies are made right?

If women are determined to have children, they need to get men to commit at a younger age.

But surely the problem is that women aren't determined to have children? Did this documentary conclude that all these childless women are unhappy about it/childless through misfortune? Surely, most of them have made an informed choice not to lumber themselves with a child (and a man who kind of, might be, part of the problem..)

Other than nobody to pay pensions whats the issue with falling birth rates?

We don't have enough work for people. AI is coming more jobs will go.
Fewer people less demand for houses, will bring house prices down or at least keep them stable.
Fewer people less demand on the NHS which is over stretched anyway.

I think many women look at the current crop of male specimens and think, Nah thanks. Some would probably choose to become single mothers by choice with better government support.

That's really interesting.

Women who do become mothers are not having fewer children than before

Is this true? It doesn't seem like it. I think families used to be much bigger. When my Mum was growing up (one of six) everyone she knew was one of 4/5/6/7 etc. Their neighbours had 13 children! That's really very rare now.

I don't think it's surprising the women are choosing not have children (or having fewer). It's hard work and expensive. Why wouldn't you avoid that if you could?

I think what's dying is the urge to reproduce, we're more interested in having a good quality of life now.

The think a big issue here is financial, some couples just simply can't afford to have kids. The cost of living is out of hand just to keep yourself never mind children.

Next factor I would say is the toxic way dating has gone. Lots of people are out looking for Mr or Miss perfect and either won't comprise, or behave so toxic themselves no-one wants to date them long term. Incel culture has men out looking for virgins only and women are rightly put off.

Add in to those that fact that the world just seems like a shit show, no wonder people are deciding not to have them