Do your strict British schools get good academic results?

Tbh I just spent three years in a "strict" secondary school in the UK, and the behaviour was appalling. Think students regularly truanting, swearing at staff, assaulting staff, bringing knives into school, and bullying was rife too.

The worst behaved students were rarely in class and spent most of their time either in the exclusion room or suspended. About 70% of all students would sit detentions for losing their pen (or deliberately destroying it, spreading ink all over their hands, the desk, and classroom carpet). Most detentions were handed out for talking in class, and refusing to complete the work set. A tiny minority were always well behaved, came to class with the correct equipment, and completed the work.

Schools are strict but, in my view, constant detentions for every little thing has a really negative effect on the teacher-student relationship. And there don't seem to be any meaningful consequences for the students whose behaviour is really concerning. So I dont know what the answer is. But I found the strict, detention-focused approach just really depressing to work in, as a teacher.

In a (usually leafy) area with supportive parents a school can do well with moderate discipline. In other areas, where parents of badly behaved students are often hostile and defensive, a boot camp style school is necessary to allow the teachers to teach.

I’d give them something. Always got it back.

The world didn’t end without detention. All they learn is to be pissed off about getting detentions for stupid things which leads to resentment.

Hiw about ‘Yeah we all forget stuff sometimes, it happens’

Serial miscreants would be treated differently.

What if they dont have anything to write with?

The Michaela school doesn’t have the best results - it has the best progress. The best results are found in the grammar schools which , around here, are not strict schools. Parents like and support strict schools and know they will suit dc. Other parents run a mile. There are very pleasant schools with good results that are not strict. Most independent ones for a start.

The school that I work in is definitely not strict. There is the option to give out detentions for lack of equipment but very few teachers use it. Instead, the first 10 minutes of any class seems to be taken up with children asking for pens or sitting doing nothing until the teacher notices that they don't have one. It is always the same children, they just can't be bothered to carry a pen around. Their results aren't dreadful but they aren't great.

I asked my dc about the school they go to which has the reputation of being stricter. Apparently, people don't forget pens there. So their lessons clearly aren't being disrupted in the same way. Their results are very good.

I have to say though, while my dc's school is strict, it is not as strict as these super strict ones styled on the Michaela school. I dont think I would like that for my dc even if the results are fantastic.

It is interesting that you minimise the reasons for detentions.
Its not the "doodling" or forgetting the pen (as much as parents will say that it is) it is the disruption around the "doodling" and "forgetting the pen".

Most detentions for uniform infractions are given by SLT, which shows you how little some actually do.

One of the biggest issues in teaching in England is that the responsibility for grades is placed entirely on the teacher.

28 years a teacher and l never gave detentions for not having a pen. Pointless waste of time. Just let them write in whatever they had.

My girls found that it was similar here - if you want to learn, you will be helped to fulfill your potential and achieve your goals, as best as you can. If you don't, well, you can muddle your way through, muck your way up, just the way you can in NZ.

As for bullying - um, yeah, there's bullying here too, specially in the stair wells, and corridors. I was a bit startled when my daughters came home, and a kid who had been expelled managed to get not just into the grounds, but into the buildings WITH A KNIFE, to come after some other kids. That sure as shit never happened at Burnside, lol.

I think it would have been a lot harder for my eldest DD to achieve her goal of studying medicine in NZ. Only having two med schools in the country doesn't help of course!

Look at the latest PISA results. England scores pretty well

DH’s school (he’s a teacher, I’m not married to a child) is strict and gets exceptional results, it’s massively oversubscribed and they have to warn prospective parents of that over and over. The way he describes it…they crack down on the little things and the kids very, very rarely push the big things. Things like mobiles it’s a gate to gate rule…once you’re in the gate it can’t be seen until you leave the gate. Uniform is a tight policy, DH reckons this makes a massive difference.

I went to a very similar school - it's usually top 20 in the country. We were allowed a certain degree of good natured mucking about because we all ultimately wanted to get the work done. I think the staff almost enjoyed when we took stuff a bit too far, because it never went too-too far. I'm not sure anyone in my class ever got a detention; one girl got sent home for dying her hair bright purple. I appreciate not all schools have the same demographic but we appreciated that we were trusted and not micromanaged.

I actually think schools should be slightly chaotic - in a positive way. There should be room for joy. I went to an academy on a work visit and it had signs everywhere saying "walk silently and with purpose" and even as an adult I thought, "I'll walk how I like thanks."

There was a thread on Michaela recently and I don't think the claim that it manages out SEN children was substantiated.

I couldn't say whether or not it's true but I will say that one of my children is neurodivergent and strict rules and clear boundaries work way better for her than niceness and easygoingness because she doesn't have to expend effort figuring out what's expected of her and she can focus on her work.

I don't think you can compare strict or not. The British education system is in a different league to NZ from nursery to university, and I'm a kiwi!

So much so that my son requires AAA in A-levels for a particular course at good uni in UK, the same course at the University of Auckland is BCC.

The similar school in my city was 2nd in the country. Michaela’s was first.

l don’t like this system but the school is massively oversubscribed.

Any actual evidence that Michaela manage out people with SEN? I think this sounds like nonsense.

I do get the feeling that things have changed quite a bit in English schools over the last 20 years. The impression I had back then is (ironically) that they were like the school in Adolescence. The comments I read now is that discipline is way tighter and there's a lot more focus.

I can't imagine that uniform works well for neurodivergent kids but here in NZ such children are unlikely to get any sort of accomodation except extra time in exams and extensions on deadlines so I imagine English schools are ahead on that front too.

I used to teach at one of the top comps in the U.K. it wasn’t particularly strict.

No uniform at all for 12/13.

My son is very smart. Had to remove him in the end from ‘excellent’ schools as he’s neurodivergent and couldn’t cope with the rigidity on uniform (suits in 6th form) and various other restrictions. He’s currently thriving in a so called mediocre comprehensive 6th form because he can be himself, dress and relax as himself without judgement and just listen to the teacher. 🤯

I was educated in England. My kids were educated in NZ and I've not been impressed with the NZ education system at all. There's a massive "she'll be right" attitude. It's true that NZ schools aren't at strict, but it's also true that they have a recognised bullying problem and I reckon a bit of discipline rather than the soft-headedness I observed among the teachers would fix that problem. Imagine a parent smiling benignly at a couple of kids glued to computer game and taking the occasional swipe at each other, and that's the NZ education system.

Unlike others, we've had a very different experience. DD goes to the comprehensive with the best results in our city (over 80% leave with 5+ in both maths and English; well over half get 7+ in maths). While there's certainly a disciplinary system (there has to be), it's no where near as strict as some of the others. There are 3 schools in the city with similar results. It's the others which are really strict, with after school detentions for really minor things (e.g. forgetting a pen). The pastoral support at DD's school is excellent. I'm told that there is low-level disruption in some lessons, but clearly not enough to seriously inhibit learning. We are very very grateful DD got a place there.

The school I work in is either top or second in our authority every year for both a-level and GCSE results. We are heavily oversubscribed with a great reputation. But I am shocked how strict some schools are that I read about on here!

DC are at an independent and they have the balance about right I think. They don’t tolerate bad behaviour but detentions are saved for fairly serious offences - fighting, bullying, rudeness to staff, vaping etc. They get good results but the demographic is predictably pretty middle class and the kids fairly engaged on the whole.

Oh, and my kids were in a bog standard comp, that was relatively relaxed.