Do your strict British schools get good academic results?

Interesting thread and reflects my belief that school are too tight on the discipline these days. In my view it's lazy leadership because the stick can be used fairly consistently across the student body whilst the carrot needs to be tailored towards individual students. Its sad to see school destroy my Dd's confidence because of the overly rigorous discipline. She has Adhd and tries really hard but does better in classes where the teachers are kind and understand that she responds far better to encouragement. I think the discipline heavy approach is employed by teachers who don't like or understand children.

Sorry wrong quote attached.

No.

You know, full well, that's not how Michaela gets the results it does.

you wouldnt get very far in the real world without the correct equipment.

Yet when you work in a office, you don't take your stuff home with you every night and bring it back the next morning. If you can't find your pen, you just get another one from the stationery cupboard.

The other thing that stands out about Michaela is that it was a new build. Every child who has gone their, went knowing the expectations. Being in a very populous area of London also means

Totally agree, and growing a school from Y7 upwards must be a lot easier. A whole group of parents, pupils and teachers who are invested in the system. No older children to be a bad influence, and no need to take the siblings of your existing wronguns! It must also give a very favourable pupil, in the early years of it's existence.

You also won't have the fear of a detention though, so will they carry on after the threat is gone?

All I learnt was that I couldn't take those two subjects, because of that particular teacher. I later did a topic covered in one of the classes at University and found I could do it very easily, so would have got a good mark in lessons had I taken it at GCSE. From what I can see the teacher decided against me, lost a good student and possibly altered my choices for A Levels and Uni as a result. How is that in anyone's interests?

If teachers want to be so strict people are terrified of them, it's great places like Michaela exist but not being honest that this is the desired outcome doesn't help anyone; certainly not pupils or parents if their kids will be suffering with mental health or SEN issues.

I'm pretty sure that while some kids will not care about getting a detention for forgetting their pen, some kids will, and the number forgetting pens will be reduced.

It was extremely noticeable during covid that when we weren't allowed to lend pen out to kids, the vast majority of them managed to show up with a pen.

I've had kids ask me to lend them a calculator simply because they can't be arsed to get their own calculator out of their bag. Do you think they'd do that if a detention was in the offing?

Then quite frankly, let those kids sit in detention and waste their lives and focus on those kids who do want to learn.

As a kid I had undiagnosed SEN and knew I'd have to stand outside with one teacher every week, because she had confiscated items I needed for the lessons and as a boarder I couldn't replace them. So I never got to do her 2 subjects as a result. Not sure what she achieved by this other than ensuring I didn't take her classes at GCSE. I got A's for what I did take but she had decided because I was forgetful and doodled I was a trouble maker... Often it seems to be subconscious selection bias (if we are feeling generous).

Rather than look at progress 8, I looked at GCSE results against prior attainment and saw their ability on intake was: Lower 8%, Middle 43% and Higher 39%. Not sure what the average is and can't find it anywhere but think it's about 25, 50, 25, so overall Michaela students are a pretty bright bunch anyway.

Really agree. It’s not just forgetting a pen. But what if they forget a protracted or a ruler. The teachers here are stretched enough as it is without having to supply equipment to kids.

Those that want to learn turn up with the right equipment. Simple. Those that can’t afford it can get help from school. There’s no excuse for not coming to school prepared.

you wouldnt get very far in the real world without the correct equipment.

See.. as a teacher who has taught in these schools, I'm not actually sure that this is even true. While it's correct that the strict behaviour policies have been implemented to ensure that more time in the classroom is soent on learning - the reality is often quite different.

It has become the culture in some schools for children to simply be in detention, every single day, because they forgot their pen. Or because they wore a black cardigan instead of their blazer. The detentions have zero impact on them. If anything, I think it's seen as an act of rebellion to continually be given detentions. The students simply don't care, and are not interested in conforming. And then what do you do, if the rules (and consequences) don't have the desired effect?

Do you?
Any evidence for that?

Someone upthread has posted Ms Birbalsingh's views on dyslexia and ADHD. Their original SEN approach was very dismissive of some children's additional needs. I know this because I have taught in Brent and students with mild learning difficulties (children who will not get 8 GCSEs but who are in no way going to get a special school place) found themselves with hours of additional drill and practice interventions that made no impact other than to make them miserable. It's not your fault if you have foetal alcohol syndrome; you will find learning harder than other students.

Interventions work well if the young person missed out previously or your last school was crap. If you simply find learning harder, those interventions often don't make a huge difference.

Maybe Michaela isn't the right place for your son

The way he describes it…they crack down on the little things and the kids very, very rarely push the big things. Things like mobiles it’s a gate to gate rule…once you’re in the gate it can’t be seen until you leave the gate.

I think that is a big thing and a reasonable rule. Detentions for doodling in your jotter, not so much. (I'd never have been out of detention if that had been a rule when I was at school).

I don't think it is necessary to be strict for the sake of it, which almost implies a low level issue with behaviour. Dd's private school has sanctions but has 24% SEN intake, so they prefer to dangle carrots and praise as it gets better results (half of all GCSEs 9-7). This works for the cohort. Some kids must really thrive in a stricter environment such as WA or the London Grammars/Indies as they get very high marks and can be far stricter on things like uniform and doodling as you say (even though doodling can be a focus technique for SEN, as an aside). This is why it's important to know your kids and for Phillipson not to penalise private schools that cater for kids that don't always do well in State offerings.

But this is a silly suggestion.

The strict schools are literally spending more time learning. The policies are designed to achieve this. Why would they not do better than another school where kids troop in late to lessons and spend half the time staring out of the window?

Progress measures take into account prior attainment and Michaela has the highest progress 8 score in the country. You can also look up their SEN percentages which are slightly lower than the country average but nothing that suggests that they actively remove pupils with SEN.

The other thing that stands out about Michaela is that it was a new build. Every child who has gone their, went knowing the expectations. Being in a very populous area of London also means that there are options for parents who would like something less regimented.

I think where new managers have come into other schools and retro-fitted the rules, teachers have not all been on board, parents have been cross that it's not what they signed up for and students have had their daily life upturned. And if you live in a rural area or somewhere near a small coastal town, there may not be another school within travelling distance

I don’t think there would be any causal link between strictness and attainment once you control for SEND and self selection. Generally neurotypical children without any SEND with immigrant parents will do well in school. The main thing the strictness achieves is covert selection.

I think the operative word here is 'famously'!

If you read the pages of rules of some of the academy trust schools in London, they sound as strict if not stricter - like something from the penal system rather than education, whereas Michaela just sounds a bit cultlike. Also the good results could be based on higher than average ability on intake.

Which in answer to OP's question, GCSE results in relation to ability on intake for every secondary school in England are published on the government website. However, it would take months of painstaking research to get a definitive answer to the question.

As for bullying - um, yeah, there's bullying here too, specially in the stair wells, and corridors. I was a bit startled when my daughters came home, and a kid who had been expelled managed to get not just into the grounds, but into the buildings WITH A KNIFE, to come after some other kids. That sure as shit never happened at Burnside, lol.

It happened in Sheffield earlier on this year 🙁

UK education standard have been dropping for a while, I doubt mad detention rules are really helpful though
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/dec/05/uk-pupils-science-and-maths-scores-lowest-since-2006-in-international-tests

I honestly think it is about intake.

London overall has better outcomes for equivalent socioeconomic status. I think (a) immigrants have made the effort to move here and are often very aspirant and (b) some of the post-industrial and post-agricultural areas have big issues of hopelessness and lack of engagement with society.

Different ND children need different environments though.
Punishments don't make my DD with ADHD less likely to forget to bring her homework in, or not to somehow lose it between arriving at school and 2nd period. The fear of forgetting things makes her forget other things.
Whereas my other DD.. she thrives on strict rules.

(But the narrow curriculum at Micheala wouldn't suit either of them. Although I think other schools should be looking atvtheir methods for English and Maths!)

Yes, this. My ND DD likes clear rules. She knows what's expected of her. I think it's perfectly reasonable to point out that a school with clear rules will mean fewer ND kids need allowances as they're already doing fine.

Rules for the sake of bullying won't work. I remember being taught by some frightful bullies of teachers. But that is a separate issue.