To think the social contract has completely broken down?

I was caned on the hand at primary school and I carry the rage and hurt to this day when I think about it.

There certainly are. I live in a privileged bubble of a small London commuter town and I realise that what I experience each day is not what many people have to contend with. But yes, around here you are safe and people are friendly and public-spirited with most retirees involved in lots of community volunteering.

But I do read, listen and watch reports about society in general and I think I’m fairly alert to changes and trends (partly via my adult, London-dwelling children). There are lots of things which are better now than I’m my youth, sure. But I also see the damage which misguided policies have caused.

I think that the balance between rights and responsibilities has shifted. I wonder if individualism is seen as far more important than it should be. And @CoffeeCantata I agree with you about education. Would like to add that my father in law taught in a bog standard boys secondary modern school in the 50s until the 70s. If a boy misbehaved really badly (as opposed to a misdemeanor) the cane was an option. It didn't often happen (and I wouldn't advocate it), but it was a very effective deterrent. Also, if your teacher complained to your parent, your parent would also punish you. As a primary school teacher in the 70s, for a major 'offence', a child would have a small smack on the hand or bottom. Again, a rarity, but a very effective deterrent. Now, the shame of this 'abuse' would be seen as an assault on mental health. It's like people can't understand that there is a huge difference between a rarely used and effective deterrent and a beating.

I think with a mortality rate of 50% very few people would have needed be told to stay home. The main issue there would be trying to force people out to work. Like fuck would anyone sane be going to work in Sainsbury’s for minimum wage if there was a virus with a 50% chance of killing you/your family.

I think it made things worse - but the rot had set in a lot earlier. Covid engendered an ‘every man/woman for themselves’ attitude, for sure. Also a distrust of authority (and the government’s failings have been mentioned above).

But realistically things were never going to be perfect- we had no experience of a global pandemic. And next time they won’t be perfect either! I read that, had the predicted mortality rate been much higher (and Covid was pretty low at around 3%), the government feared civil unrest. Some diseases have a 50% + mortality rate! The stakes would have been far higher and it would have been a nightmare trying to balance democratic society, individual freedoms and the need for total control over the population of Britain.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

It can feel like that, certainly. You can try to swing things back the other way, in a very small way. Finding small kind things to do for people. Holding doors open, carrying shopping for people who are struggling. Taking an interest in others and stepping up when you see it can really make a difference. And you may notice other people taking a similar view of life and that feels better. Of course, this won't change VERY MUCH, but it can make you feel better.
There are in fact still plenty of good people out there, volunteering for charities, making things happen in their own free time. We just don't notice them so much.

Looking at social trends since the late 70s (I’m old and a former teacher), I think it’s more to do with the post-modern debunking of authority in all areas of life. I brought up the point about questioning authority on an intellectual level earlier because I experienced that in all the training I had over many decades. I think the trendy lefties of the 70s and 80s promoted this notion but didn’t really foresee the full consequences either for the classroom or wider society.

Teaching in a deprived area in a big comp, I found the students in the early 80s well-behaved and largely respectful, and their parents were polite and civilised people. I never experienced aggression from anyone. Education is a sort of barometer for society as a whole - fashions there both reflect current political thinking and later affect the whole of society, for better or worse.

There’s another thread at the moment about a parent who was shocked by the rigid discipline at Holland Park Comp. I think this is the backlash we’re seeing against the erosion of teachers’ authority over the last 4 decades. I’m not judging that (I can only go on what that OP says), but I think that and the Michaela schools in London are the result of a wish to do something to redress the balance. Children can’t learn in the chaos of disrupted lessons, but it’s a shame that the pendulum has to swing so hard the other way.

(I’m banging on about education here because I think it’s key to what’s happened to wider society btw).

I don’t think any more children were ‘thumped’ then than now. It’s a bit of a myth. If you came from the kind of family who went in for thumping, then you’d get thumped. I should think it happens just as much now in that kind of family as it ever did.

My thinking where we live, outside of the UK but including UK in this, that society has got to this point due to lack of anti social behaviour consequences.

even our local community cop said in regard to a permanent troublemaker that he, the trouble maker, knew exactly how far he could go before the police could intervene, and it’s just not us but others and he threatens people when they are on their own and vulnerable.

since this started I have a deeper understanding of why people seek revenge and kill ‘an upstanding and much loved family member’.

in our case the twit is teaching his sons to follow through and they bully other children on the school bus. No one will speak out.

I'm glad it's not just me who thinks this. Society seems to have gotten increasingly selfish since then

@ChubbyPuffling yes you’re so right about behind closed doors. Very bad stuff happened and wasn’t talked about or believed.

Yes, I agree it was worse then. I think it's been returning towards that level in recent years, though.

Also all the all the talk about Self care / focus on your MH and wellness/ put your self first has made people very self centred and selfish in my opinion

However, that isn't what is being discussed here.

And if someone was walking around with a ghetto blaster it was just music. Now however people are listening to all sorts of stuff on their phones so we are forced to listen to inane chatter and cackling laughter, it's very annoying.

My OH and I have said this OP. That since COVID a lot of folk seem self-centered and rude.

But it all took it behind closed doors - certainly in the 70s. Kids were thumped because the busy body down the street heard them swear. Kids were hit with a belt at our school for answering back or rolling their eyes.
"Uncle Mike is going home, give him a hug, go on"... (while he cops a feel)

A frightened existence was not a better one.

Yes I think things were better

To the pp saying that things were worse in the 70’s and 80’s, I disagree on the whole. Most people knew how to behave with respect for others in public. People would call out others misbehaving in public, including school kids. It felt like there was more of a collective responsibility to do the right thing. I might be wrong and happy to be told so but compared to now, it was nothing like the general disregard of others and the individualism of today.
Lives were certainly worse in many other ways of course!

So then we may as well just let people do what they want then no? Because you can never tell what anyone is going through so you can never pull up anyone on their behaviour ever. So the result is everyone just does want they want because they can get away with it.

Why is being a bit patient and kind just in case, such a bad thing?

Because of “Don’t judge. Don’t shame. Be kind. You don’t know someone’s personal issues. Maybe they have SEN/mental health issues/having a bad day.” It’s all you see on here if anyone mentions someone doing something bad/rude/antisocial etc.

So if you are parented permissively are you to blame for your selfish actions?

Ethically what should society do?

The legal age in England (and Wales) of criminal responsibility is 10. Is that too young? Too old?