To think the social contract has completely broken down?

That’s great. Genuinely, of course I’m glad that your teenagers are happy and that things around you appear optimistic. But it’s naive to think we’re not living through troubled times and that there are some signs that society has changed, particularly since the pandemic.

Suggesting that feeling this way is something wrong with OP rather than an understandable reaction to difficult times, or an intelligent need to discuss something she’s seeing around her, comes across as sly, and a little naive.

If you’re so snide to strangers, I honestly don’t see how you can be particularly happy in your private life. Etc.

I agree, I honestly don’t think you could explain it further!

I disagree

if you have this kind of bleak view on society (“social contract has completely broken down”), then I honestly can’t see how you can be particularly happy in your personal life.

I look at my teens and their friends and see such optimism and joy and just general all round positivity that I couldn’t possibly think this. These kids are polite and thriving and respectful. Sure, they have their moments. Just like we did.

I use public transport a lot and, sure there’s inconsiderate people, but the vast majority are perfectly considerate and go about their business not wishing to cause other discomfort or disrespect.

I could go on.

Shame and embarrassment has gone.
People talk loudly on the bus on their phone. In the past you didn't want people to hear what your saying.

If a teacher or the school complained about you, your parents would back them and you'd be in trouble.
Now a parent is more likely to complain on here, or go into school complaining. They may even become aggressive.

Social media is a cesspit.
Mobile phones haven't helped.
General decline in standards and manners.
Less courtesy on the roads too.

People are definitely getting ruder and more inconsiderate. It’s one of the long lasting consequences of covid. I live in an AONB not far from a national park, and I’ve noticed the behaviour of visitors has drastically declined. They’re very quick to say that the countryside
is for everyone whilst simultaneously behaving like it’s only for them.

OMG, so horribly true. The damage Thatcher caused, not only selling off state assets and squandering the money, but even worse making antisocial greed and selfishness seem normal.

People harp on about their rights. If you have rights you also have responsibilities, all too often forgotten.

I’m sure she’s as happy as most people and this observation isn’t something intrinsically wrong with her.

I think one of them would! They wouldn’t do it iBut they wouldn’t necessarily condemn the motivation.

Although my daughter hated Extinction Rebellion and wondered if it was actually a movement set up to discredit the environmental lobby.

We have lots of discussions and arguments about politics and philosophy. They will both be passionate about their beliefs, which may be at odds with mine, or with the mainstream. I’d say my daughter particularly is quite radical, politically and environmentally. Neither of them are complacent about the status quo.

So not exactly Young Conservatives. But in terms of their social behaviour they’re polite, friendly, respectful of everyone they meet and have excellent manners.

I’m sorry if I’m not explaining very well, but I’ve been posting on the same theme for ages which is: questioning authority is an intellectual thing and doesn’t need to manifest as nasty, disrespectful, anti-social, ill-mannered behaviour.

This was a bugbear when I was teaching long ago and the excuse given for rudeness or lack of respect by students would be ‘we’re/they’re questioning authority’ (by them, or some adults). My point (again) is that you have to do that the rigorous way - through reasoned argument- not by being cheeky or just refusing to comply with a fair request.

I honestly can’t explain it further!

😆

Very likely also insufferable

Yep, my opinion is a lot of people have come out of lockdown absolutely bonkers, delicate, and with anger issues.

They wouldn’t actually throw a tin of beans at a Monet, but they defend and retain the right to do so.

Sorry? I asked whether you saw an absence of respect for authority in your children and their friends and peer.

and your response is Only in an intellectual, theoretical sense.

what on earth do you mean?

E2A: Bad quoting, soz to all

Only in an intellectual, theoretical sense. They’re interested in politics and open-minded. My daughter is - horrible old-fashioned word, but ‘alternative’. She lives a very Greta Thunberg life (forgive the cliches - I’m try to be concise). My son is a barrister, so a very different sphere.

Both went to very traditional state schools and although they are very liberal, open- minded and challenge accepted ideas, they are and always have been conformist in terms of behaviour, both at school and now. They have got on well with adults - particularly their teachers and lecturers, and always respectful and hard-working.

My point is: you can question and challenge societal norms, but it doesn’t have to mean unruly, disrespectful or antisocial behaviour.

What countries have you seen this play out in?

And how old are your children? Do you see the lack of respect for authority in them and in their friends and peers?

They’ve ceded their ability or right to defend themselves and their property to the state on the understanding that the state will adequately fund and maintain a police force capable and willing of preventing crime and violence.

Arguably the cornerstone of civilisation.

Once it has gone, it's basically anarchy blended with the usually-violent arrival and usually-violent departure of strong men (very occasionally women) to preside over the general misery.

No grandchildren…and it’s not looking too likely at present. But I have friends with very young grandchildren..

@CoffeeCantata out of interest, do you have children? I know you have extensive history in teaching

and if you have adult children, any grandchildren?

I’m sure there’ve always been youngsters who find it difficult to accept authority (don’t mean Nazi jackboots- merely being asked to hand in homework or not talk when the teacher’s talking etc).

But the prevailing attitude until then would have been that it wasn’t acceptable behaviour. The difference in the 70s, and what I mean by a permissive attitude, is that there was a shift in this view that say, students should comply with requests and citizens in the wider society should obey its rules.

So while difficult students might always have existed, the attitude to them and sanctions against them softened and the educational establishment began to shift the blame for behaviour on to teachers - if the kids are playing up, it’s because you’re boring them!

I meet polite people on a daily basis, but then i'm v polite

I think increasing numbers of people feel that way.

They’ve ceded their ability or right to defend themselves and their property to the state on the understanding that the state will adequately fund and maintain a police force capable and willing of preventing crime and violence. Now they find themselves helpless and defenceless in an increasingly aggressive and violent society. So much crime goes unreported and therefore unpunished. If a vehicle is stolen the police will give you a crime reference number for insurance purposes. We’re in a real mess and it’s only getting worse.