To think the social contract has completely broken down?

Exactly. My parents were early boomers. Born in 1946. Dad died aged 65. Mum aged 69. No 40 year retirements going on there. They must be people’s perfect boomers. Dead before they could claim much (almost any in my dads case) state pensions.

Realistically, how many people are likely to be enjoying a 40 year's retirement?

I try to respond in a genuine way but can see I am responding to a closed mind.

My mistake @tommyhoundmum I always forget that the privations experienced 60 years ago by those currently experiencing 40 year retirements have never been equalled before or since 😩

I agree. There are so many easy mantras - and you see them a lot on MN - which let people off the hook:

• people’s brains aren’t fully mature till they’re in their mid-20s (so…we don’t expect people to know right from wrong till they’re 27?)
• they might be neuro-diverse. Well, they might be- but it’s not necessarily an excuse for bad behaviour. I speak as the parent of a ND daughter.
• ”Why do you care? It’s none of your business.” If you believe that ‘no man/woman is an island’, or in community, then obviously other people’s choices and actions sometimes are.

I think our society is too obsessed with trivialities - rather like the Roman tactic of giving the populace plenty of “bread and circuses “. The huge proliferation of entertainment media, social media and virtual reality takes up the attention of too many people.

I think generally people are less well-informed than 30-odd years ago - when there were just a few TV channels and more of us watched the news, David Attenborough and series and documentaries about history and science. There wasn’t the option of just following your own narrow interest or echo-chamber via an algorithm, or sitting in front of endless Netflix dramas.

I think it has had an effect on our political/constitutional knowledge and our democratic participation. The link between our lives and our social responsibilities has been damaged. A lot of people are content to take no interest or part in the democratic process.

Yes, however for most of us on here, though, life probably started off a a little less complex than things are now.

@tommyhoundmum I took this to mean the generation after this, now known as boomers.
I also think it’s pretty relevant of each generation after this too. None of us have ever suffered any actual hardship.

Many of the "older cushioned" people you refer to grew up just after the war when food was severely rationed and many people had no hot water or even an inside lavatory, let alone a TV or washingmachine. If they are "cushioned" in any way it is because they worked hard and paid into the system over many years and are now reaping the benefits of it. They could have been bitter and twisted by the privations but they just got on with it. A brilliant example set for those coming along behind.

I’m in a town in the south east, and also very much recognise what you describe. It certainly isn’t the case that manners are “a thing of the past” around here .

I think our little country is just too crowded.

Houses being built everywhere so open spaces shrinking.

Houses are really expensive and any being built seem to be on smaller and smaller plots so you can hear neighbour noise even if detached

Roads are busier. If I go out during the day I am always taken aback at how busy everywhere is even on a Monday at 11am for example or Wednesday at 2pm. It's like nobody goes to work anymore or something

Basic services are becoming scarce. Like getting a gp appointment used to be easy peasy and now it's like a competition with 300 people all trying to get 5 available appointments.

Police standards seem to have gone down (I understand why as nobody wants to do this job anymore) so it seems people are getting away with shoplifting, anti social behaviour etc more which in turn I think breeds resentment from people who are law abiding. I mean I don't shoplift and never have but keep hearing stories of how you can walk in and take stuff and walk out and nobody will stop you and the police won't attend either. So what - I can just stop paying for food and there will be no consequences. WTF am I continuing to pay then like a mug (you get the drift)

Even policeman don't look like policeman anymore. I'm in my fifties so okay I probably sound old but in my head policeman are tall, slim, good character, strong, calm and reassuring, no tatoos or beards. Smart, ironed uniforms.
The ones I see nowadays are all short, overweight, beards, tatoos, crumpled uniforms. I think policing used to be seen as something to aspire to and whilst the pay was never amazing, it used to come with a really good pension. Now I think that is gone and so the youngsters are thinking why would I want to do a dangerous job for mediocre pay and average pension. Can't blame them. Of course the police have had to drop their standards to recruit now and so it feels like even the backbone ie the law is becoming more 'undisciplined, less smart, less well mannered, less aspiring'

Added into that you have politicians behaving badly (RR crying, AR tax dodging) and all the 'stop the boats' I think just highlights that people are feeling squashed, sqeezed, overlooked, disrespected and need to 'fight for themselves'

I haven't been dating for over 10 years now but I keep hearing stories about how men are avoiding marriage and just using woman for sex, woman are expected to do degrading sex stuff as 'normal' and respect just seems to be out of the window with ghosting etc

The young generation who I always expect to be healthy, bright, ambitious, full of energy and striving to build their lives and families seem to be disappearing. Partly because of the internet, the job market, house prices, easy sex without commitment. I do really feel sorry for them. I went to uni and got a grant (no fees), was able to buy a house and build a career. It didn't seem that easy at the time but compared to now I think I was very lucky in lots of respects.

I also think UPF have made people ill. Not just overweight but lacking in nutrients and health which in turn of course makes them less likely to be ambitious or hardworking or goal orientated.

I am early retired in my fifties and I so appreciate my mornings when I sit quietly drinking my coffee and reading the news /mumsnet before facing my day. I don't love my house but I own it outright (and will move at some point to another I like better). I'm not rich but I've no money worries either really. I am hiding away more and more from 'life' and 'noise' because it all just seems overwhelming. That might partly be my age but the world does honestly seem louder and more overbearing and more unruly and scary.

Probably less troubled than medieval times - i'd say standard of life is pretty good these days - we are living in extraordinary times

I agree.

I certainly saw it begin with my generation. I knew that if I got told off at school my parents would side with me and have a go at school. I was physically taught to be disrespectful, “respect is earned”
My DH on the other hand was brought up as the generation above and if he’d been told off at school he’d have been guaranteed a second telling off at home.

I feel quite lucky to have witnessed two very different families as it’s made me question things for bringing my own children up.

We have that problem on our common with people driving across while others are sunbathing. They say "it's our common too". Right, respect it then.

I think it varies a lot around the country. I live in a village in the south east and find most people to be polite, considerate and community minded. The local young people seem to be generally reasonably behaved and hard working and ive never had issues with squabbles with my neighbours. I often find i hardly recognise what people describe on mumsnet and it really worries me that we are becoming a divided country with some much poorer areas bearing no resemblance to the standard of living in the affluent south east

I agree with you. The morals you’re taught and modelled through childhood typically remain instilled. They shape your whole life.

Lots of parents care and lots don’t. So lots of children care and lots don’t. But I do also think society and the people you’re around regularly can influence you too.

You soon stop thanking people when no one else does.

I’m polite too and meet some polite people. I also meet a lot of impolite people. Perhaps geography impacts perception of this; I live in a busy part of the South East and opening doors for others, saying thanks if you’ve stood aside to let people pass, not littering, picking up your own dog poo seems to be a thing of the past. The odd person does it, obviously, but generally it feels very dog eat dog now.

(And long term damage to the environment via littering is something short-lived humans need a longer-term society and education system to grasp).

We are a civilian population and it’s been a long time since we truly faced having to fight for survival. It’s something many, especially the older cushioned generation, struggle to understand.

Society is being destroyed. Debates are gone. Reason is gone. The concept of a group of people that you should be nice to is going. They are not nice to you after all. The concept of a group is going! That’s why government and politicking matters.

I don’t understand why facing an uncertain future means you have to litter and be disrespectful to people. Why is it always “well people are behaving inconsiderately because of the government”. I don’t litter because I was taught that chucking shit all over the floor is wrong, makes things unpleasant for everyone and I wasn’t raised in a barn. I’ve lived under Labour and conservative governments, I’ve been utterly skint and very comfortable. Not once did I think “y’know what I’m going to be an anti-social twat because I have to live on those 5 for a pound noodles for weeks at a time”.

It’s bollocks isn’t it, people behave like this because they were poorly brought up and everyone’s terrified of saying anything incase they get stabbed.

I actually think more people need to question these concepts, as you cannot engage within a system that cannot be questioned. Systems that cannot be questioned are authoritarian and driven by force and power. To have a democracy ruled by law you need consent and that requires understanding and, therefore questioned. A society that cannot supply answers is in very shaky territory. The post war social contract enabled questions to be asked and answered within its vibrant literary worlds of alternative, often dystopian, worlds and science fiction, many of them classics.

The beginnings of an answer lie in the realisation and knowledge that questions of taxation and how much power law should have when is exactly what politicians debate and is exactly what choosing political parties is about!

When Tories go on about small state and low regulation, they’re talking about removing all obligations of the state to individuals and, as you mentioned, removing the power to enforce laws and taxation. The problem is that if you take taxation away the state has no money and therefore no power. It effectively ceases to exist. What they don’t tell you is that it means no healthcare, no education, and more crucially no law enforcement, no checks on the power of those with power - individuals or companies - to do precisely what they want, ruining people’s lives and the land and ecosystems in the process.

The far left, as it’s called, is the argument that everything should be surrendered to the power of the state and the state should govern everything for its own benefit: as it has a longer life than any individual member, so members are best served by working for its survival. The obvious problem is that it involves throwing individuals lives and rights under a bus. It does not have much of a presence here now.

We navigate, or should, between the two extremes. It’s easy to see how they can come to resemble each other, taking the lives of poorer individuals for naught. Most understand the second extreme very well, but less so the first. We’ve seen communism in states more recently than imperialism. But as the first extreme has grown in power its beneficiaries have increasingly - imho - gained powers to cloudy waters and wreck the educated and informed debates needed to best balance different factions and priorities.

That is where we are in my opinion, and as SerendipityJane points out, you need consent to be able to operate in the large scale societies we have. As people see - and they do - that societies increasingly are not representative, not balanced, not in fact reasoned at all and are merely about power, they have no reason to meekly engage with their own impoverishment.

The sheer numbers in our society are a major factor by themselves.

Fair enough
Different strokes for different folks

I think perhaps you didn’t read mine, which mentioned how you tend to have quite fixed and repetitive replies to considered responses. That’s ok, I’ve said my piece and from experience don’t expect we’ll move on further from this.

Did you read my post? 😕

I said that I do agree that there are troubling signs!!

but I do not think the “social contract has completely broken down”

not even close

You know, I don’t usually remember poster’s names but I have come to recognise yours. You’re often quite argumentative and pedantic on threads, even when people are giving you the benefit of the doubt and are trying to engage in good faith.

You might not agree with the prior poster but they really took some time to answer your question and interact with you respectfully but you didn’t seem to give them this same respect. You might want to reflect a little on that, given you’re making sly suggestions on people’s lives and mental health.

Absolutely some troubling signs that things are deteriorating

but this Op has said that the social contract at has completely broken which I find massively hyperbolic