To think the social contract has completely broken down?

Yes, the myopia is absurd. Exhausting that this kind of frog in a well attitude is of epidemic proportions now. Dismantling the social contract one brick at a time, until the lowest common denominator rules the roost.

Also check out the MN thread of whether one should also have to socialise with their extended family - same basic arguments there.

Completely agree everyone suits themselves these days whether or not it impacts on other people is not a consideration. People also don’t take responsibility for their own behaviour or choices so don’t believe it reflects on them as an individual

@smallpinecone I think you are talking about the broken windows theory?

That reminds me of something else. If anyone's old enough to remember New York zero tolerance policing, a lot of people seem to have misunderstood what that was.

It basically meant that if you were caught doing something like jumping the barrier at the subway, when they arrested you, they would go through all of your details at the station. They actually found that a lot of people who were jumping the barriers had committed other crimes. This then enabled them to build a proper profile of individuals

Meanwhile, at the moment, policing in the UK is not focused on this kind of thing at all. It's paying no attention to the broken windows problems.

I did read Michael Shellenberger's SanFransicko when it came out, but I don't remember much detail - I think there were massive parallels between that and London now - but sadly it's all across the UK. Only massive political change is going to help. And we've got four years before we can even try and get near that.

Everyone seems to know their "rights" but don't seem to have been taught about their responsibilities. I have the right to play my trumpet at 2 am, but I have the responsibility to not disturb my neighbours

I can’t remember the phrase that describes the phenomenon, maybe it’ll come back to me. But there’s good evidence that when small, minor incidents of antisocial behaviour or bad manners occur and aren’t effectively dealt with, it encourages an escalation in poor behaviour over time.

Once it would have been unacceptable to play loud music on public transport, to put your shoes up on the seats, to eat smelly fast food and leave the litter everywhere. Now those who choose to behave in an antisocial way feel emboldened to continue, since the small acts of rudeness were tolerated, and their behaviour continues to deteriorate.

It’s not a bad thing to have certain reasonable standards and expectations of decent behaviour. An endlessly tolerant, permissive society where everyone does as they please regardless of the impact on others is a road to hell - every atomised individual not caring about anyone other than themselves.

I was involved in a horrible incident outside front door couple of weeks ago. I asked someone to turn their car stereo down and they insulted me then threatened to kick my door down and beat me up. I was so shocked and scared by it, it's really shaken me. I generally try to see the best in people but now I dont know. I honestly don't know where things are headed.
I'm reading a really interesting book by Danny Wallace about rudeness and what causes it in society. Basically it seems to be about feeling disempowered and kicking downwards which makes sense I suppose.

This! It feels so odd to me, the inequality. I see it in some of our newbies at work. I also see parents teaching their kids to act like this though so there is possibly no hope once they get to the workplace

I think all expenditure should be reviewed in terms of what people want when they realise the limitations.

Also the social contract must include considering where the boundaries lie on free services - there is no ceiling to healthcare expenditure because treatments improve all the time. But the level of entitlement we now have is pretty high - the complaining about free services in the UK seems very high to me.

The whole "why are you bothered if so and so does this/that, how does it affect you?" argument, completely ignores the cumulative affect the preponderance of selfish behaviours might have on society as a whole.

I think it goes both ways. Certain people expect things to be like the past when the world is a completely different place to what it was 30 years ago. In a way, the expectation that people should not change priorities in challenging times and live like we did 30 years ago is quite entitled in itself. I don't think people are any worse behaved than 30 years ago BTW, just the shit they do has a different manifestation. Look at football hooliganism - it was utterly rife back then and women were treated appallingly. Now you have people on here that moan when children don't play in the garden like they did 30 years ago then moan about the noise when they do. They just like moaning IMO.

Well said

My RL experience is very different to what’s portrayed on here.

Earlier I took dd to A&E. Bad hand injury, deep cuts and squished bones (not broken thankfully) and she felt sick so had a bowl and like she’d pass out seeing her blood. As I pulled into the hospital car park there were lots of parent child spaces and I was tempted but then imagined the mn thread about my entitlement 🤣 so I went up 2 levels in the multi-storey, parked and then helped dd down the stairs (there was a lift but they break down a lot). Dd is 14 so I know the space isn’t for us but I do wonder if someone has a need, maybe we shouldn’t be so quick to judge.

Yes that kind of thing is really ramping up.

Yes people would care what those around them thought. People are more insular and the internet does play a part in this

We’re already living with a worse social contract because these days both parents work. I think this is the major failing.

It doesn’t need to be the woman at home, but it’s helpful to have one parent at home to support the children with their homework, their friendships , their eating , their community.

Families can no longer afford it and parents don’t have the time to play as active a part in supporting their own families and communities let alone the wider community.

This

The brutal truth of productivity is you need to
invest in workers and the workers of tmw and then when productivity increases you have more revenue for public services.

Brexit was a disaster but just look at how it has benefited the ROI.

@KTheGrey you think free education should be looked at before the triple lock? 😆

Well - perhaps a review of income vs expenditure and some clarity about what we’re willing to spend on and how much.

Health care has no ceiling - but we cannot afford the latest treatments for everybody on the budget we have. It’s very expensive to have 9 million people apparently not very economically active, it’s very expensive to have debt, it’s very expensive to provide free education and free childcare, it’s very expensive to provide social care, it’s very expensive to build infrastructure, clean rivers, run the police and the fire brigade and fund defence.

So it is not about fixing the triple lock alone.

Also, fixing the triple lock will not stop entitled twerps or foolish people ringing an ambulance when they don’t need one (this is an example of problems of unnecessary expenditure, not exhaustive).

And don't forget fiscal drag!

And then you need to think of our distorted housing market & the impact that has had on stagnant incomes. It's an absolute shit show.

It might sound a trite point but I'm convinced that it hasn't helped that TV seems to prioritise edgy, snarky and the worst side of human nature drama/comedy as opposed to ones with heart and soul and positive vibes. Which doesn't have to mean cheesy.

Brazen lawlessness of that kind is surely quite recent and can’t be blamed on the 2008 crash?

Of course it can because we have never recovered & wages have stagnated for years. Due to inflation people are now feeling much poorer & of course austerity means fewer police officers and prisons so where do the criminals go?

You need to understand the impact of low interest rates and what happens when that is stripped away and there is inflation.

Look at the salary equivalent of 30k over the last few decades
2000 30k
2008 35k
2015 41k
2020 45k
2025 57k

So in 20 yrs your salary needed to grow by 15k to keep pace with inflation but in the last 5 yrs alone it needed to increase by 12k.

I don’t think intrinsic human nature has ever really changed if you look at back at history. Technology evolves, different governments get voted in, different countries have different cultures but deep down humans have remained the same. We’re a selfish species.