To think there is some kind of weird push towards the far right?

The fact that he still hasn't got a name for it really isn't helping his reputation for dithering and indecisiveness, is it…

The number is just too high. Look around you - look at the discussion we’re having - you think these levels are sustainable, or desirable? Is this current level of immigration working? Obviously not.

Though he keeps winning his MP seat.

You can also think legal immigration is too high.

He's a massive fuckwit. I hadn't realised just how unelectable he was until 2019. Does his new mess even have a name yet?

You know it’s mostly legal migration, right?
And without this our system will collapse!
Universities which are already in extreme financial difficulty depend on foreign students, and the rest have to prove they can support themselves and pay tax.
Honestly you lot never let the facts get in the way of what you’ve been manipulated into thinking.

There doesn't have to be a 'massive cohort of diehard Starmer fans', there just has to be enough of those that don't want an extreme right wing government - Reform!

Laughs out loud.

Corbyn will now do the same for the left. Amusing really. He's so obsessed by being the rebel that he's happy to let the country go to Reform so he has someone to fight.

Starmer fights Reform on their terms because he has no political ideology and policy prescription to fix the issues in society. This government have no real aim beyond staying in power.

Labour are getting crushed in the polls. There’s no massive cohort of diehard Starmer fans or people who will vote for Starmer to keep Reform out.

Its’s a complete shit show that will directly lead to a Reform government, with Corbyn now dividing the left vote even further! - it’s a massive gift he’s giving them.

Reform split the Tory vote.

Reform is the only party currently campaigning, and they are still polling at only 34%.

When you consider only 20% of voters voted for the current Labour government….

The Conservatives aren’t right leaning.

The UK didn’t particularly want a Labour government; they just didn’t want the Conservatives. That’s how Labour won it - they barely said a word, but it was handed to them just by virtue of not being the Tories.

Typical response. Don't like the facts as they don't fit your narrative so Iyou will roll your eyes and ignore in favour of made up bollocks.

OK, whatever you say... 🙄

Wrong on all points. Listen harder.

If by credible outlet, you mean the BBC and Sky News, that's not news, that's propaganda. They show people what they want thrm to see. Many led with stories of 'violent clashes'... there were just 25 arrests at this so-called 'facist' rally on Saturday, against 423 for the 'family friendly' Notting Hill Carnival. I don't recall seeing widespread coverage of these 'violent clashes' 🤔

The aerial pictures of UTK are available all over YouTube - look at these and tell me again how this is just 150,000 people!?

Have no idea what a Reform govt will be like - but I do know that NOTHING can be worse than the absolute shower we've got in govt currently.

Maybe engage more in what's going on than trying to disengage and watch dog videos. We need people to protest against "this shite". Doing nothing is exactly what these peope want and how fucked up countries become due to passive disinterest.

@NigelFaragesFakeRoarofLaughter
Thanks for your explanations.
And I agree there was unusual lobbying and opinion forming when this all kicked off. My incorrect assumption was that you discounted early interference on the TRA side, because generally when we hear of bot farms, we associate them with building opinion on what is considered the "wrong side of history" TM. I am a little sceptical of the scale of influence this had, but appreciate your insights.

The police don't lie about this stuff - why would they?

I suppose they also made up the fact that 26 police officers were injured while trying to prevent Tommy fans from attacking the anti-racist march that was happening at the same time. A mate of mine was at that one. She said it was terrifying - they were effectively kettled by the yobs trapping them in a pincer movement from behind and in front. Which was clearly done deliberately.

It's also clear from the footage that it was 90% white men attending.

I mean, it was just the '80s and '90s BNP/EDL stuff with a different name (although the same organiser, what with Tommy Robinson founding the EDL - along with former co-leader and convicted paedophile Richard Price) and slightly better PR. We've seen it all before, and this time it's no different.

Please provide the source for your figures?

You are correct, the British people voted in an election for the type of government they wanted and rejected a right leaning one, in favour of a Labour government. Something those on the right side of politics are currently trying to conveniently forget

This government has a mandate for four more years to fulfill their manifesto, no amount of failed Conservatives jumping to Reform is going to change this.

Reform is the only party currently campaigning, and they are still polling at only 34%. When we get closer to an election, when other parties start campaigning and when they are held to account on their policies, I expect this to drop. This is an example of what their members think of the voting population.

I'm sorry, I don't know if I've managed to answer your questions very well.

I suppose the TL;DR is, yes lots of completely genuine real-life people involved in very genuine real-life situations.

But being lured or forced to throw all their energies into playing a particular game chosen by a covert external actor, on a playing field chosen by the covert external actor.

That's modern influence operations for you.

Look at the aerial shots... the crowd goes on for MILES. There is absolutely no WAY that is only 150,000 people. The media want people to think it's a fringe movement. It isn't.

I notice you haven't acknowledged that there were only 25 arrests - that's quite remarkable for a 'racist, facist rally attended by hooligans, whose sole purpose is to create division and hate.'

Shall I tell you what I've seen/read about the UTK: content from YouTubers like Shady Shae and Tommy Singh describing why they're proud to British; a Ghanaian dressed head to toe in full Union Jack regalia, the gospel choir closing out the rally to Jerusalem, a Jewish man in the thick of the crowd proudly wearing a kippah, to name just a few things.

THESE things are what Unite the Kingdom was about.

I suppose my overall question is, if we believed Russians manipulated the gender debate, what worse situation are we in now than if they hadn't?

Dealing with just the last part of your post and making the supposition that Russia did manipulate the gender debate...

Changing the question around a little: "What better situation is Russia in now than if they hadn't?"

Well, they have a US President in the White House who has been defending Putin, blaming Ukraine for being invaded by Russia, and repeatedly stop-started military aid to Ukraine.

This President repeatedly reduces or threatens reducing US involvement in NATO.

And according to a lot of people on MN, gender-ID issues were a major issued in getting this President got into the White House, supported by people to whom he is otherwise anathema.

So the motivation for Russia to get involved is obvious.

72% of the UK public think immigration has been too high. The UK public have rights too. They have the right to determine the future of the democracy they live in.

You are not going to get an election winning platform on anything other than dealing with that, and the low economic growth. It’s the number one issue.

This is all real right? Right.

So far this can have little to do with Russian interference can it? Wrong.

Look back to the previous step.

HOW did this TRA-ism suddenly come about that, out of almost nowhere? It just blew right up in the course of a very few years. It was really odd.

And it was really odd activism. Although clothed in the garb of "rights for all" – an excellent hook to grab genuine, well-meaning people – it leapt straight to bizarre extremes.

We can see this very well in the reception of JK Rowling's excellent statement supporting trans people's rights, just not at the expense of everyone else's rights where these conflicted. That should have been easy to agree with: balancing of rights is something we (used to) do every day. Instead she became the target of hate storms.

MN's FWR board has done a very good job of identifying that a lot of the influence is coming through social media. One side of that is the grooming of children into believing that transitioning offers them a way out of whatever feelings they're suffering (it's been well-explored on FWR that abuse or autism seem to be present in many young transitioners).

The other side of it is the raising of Twitter storms against anyone who objects. Very noisy attacks which get taken up in real-life by real people.

But all of this anonymous social media stuff can be started by anyone, anywhere. And it doesn't have to be Russian.

A few years ago there was an exposé of Cambridge Analytica offering influencer services to an undercover reporter whom they thought was a politician. The Cambridge Analytica guy gets caught on camera explaining in detail how people won't believe eg a smear if they can see it's coming from a someone they can see has a vested interest. But if it appears to be coming from their "friends" – even internet "friends" – they are much more likely to believe it.

The phrase he used was "pushing the story out into the bloodstream of the internet". Using anonymity to get it started and allowing quite genuine users to run with it up.

Cambridge Analytica getting caught on camera is why we know about that one.

The Blake Lively vs Justine Baldoni case been another recent example where an influence operation got caught discussing the nuts and bolts of pushing out a message on social media and trad media, and celebrating the fact that the real life people had picked it up and run much further with it than the agency imagined it. In that example, the PR agency emails and comms became part of the court case.

These are just a few who have been spectacularly outed. Unfortunately, this stuff is now endemic.

I should say I really can't guess whether the kick off of crazy TRA-ism originated from Russia (although doubtless they'll have helped turn up the gas once they saw it emerging as issue). It just as likely came from some other actor which saw it as a useful wedge issue.