To think feminism has made dating harder, not easier, for women?

No.

YABU.

There's not confusion, people can set their own roles and for most couples that involves the same things as it should. Working, doing housework, showing affection to each other, if you have kids both being involved in all the aspects of parenting.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'whose more invested', how is that linked to feminism? On pay, again people can set their own boundaries, I personally pay for what I got the majority of the time and that's how I see it as fair. Again I wouldn't really have a joint account except for a few things and would rather be financially independent. That is something many women never had and something I value as a result.

For things like multiple dating etc, people can set their own expectations of what they want and they should communicate that. Yes more people are going on multiple dates at a time, people can set expectations, they can say if they want something causal or fun, so if that's what they want then as long as the boundaries are clear and open, there's nothing wrong with it.

Power games? You mean that women dont put up with any old shit?

Lots of weird, incel like comments on MN in the last few days.

If there was ever a case for not underthinking anything, whom you’re auditioning for a potentially longterm relationship and to be the parent of your children is it, surely.

Oh, hang on, you’re the usual three-part-name poster with the same goady questions.

I don’t think it’s feminism that’s made dating trickier. I think the increasing focus on individualism and materialism has made people look out for themselves more. Both men and women. And the increase in porn culture has made dating (and relationships with men) more dangerous for women in some ways. If those things had increased without feminism then women would be in an even worse place now, and it would still even trickier.

Maybe you’re right and dating used to be simpler back when roles were clearer: the man knows that he opens doors and pays the bill, all the woman has to worry about is looking pretty. Man talks, woman listens and shows interest (but doesn’t offer opinions - don’t worry your silly little head trying to act like you understand topics you couldn’t possibly comprehend). Men make the choices, women do as they’re told. Man can give woman a slap if she forgets her place; he is in charge and she mustn’t forget that. It’s all so much simpler for everyone!
(In case it’s not entirely bleeding obvious: outdated offensive attitudes aren’t my own, I’m very much a feminist!)

Genuinely, what specific aspects of dating do you think have been complicated by feminism? I can imagine why incels might prefer pre-feminism ‘simplicity’, but can’t see what’s in it for women, or why you think feminism has caused the power struggles/poor communication you’ve experienced.

Are you a woman OP?

Why would you assume you’re exclusive after a date or a few dates? Why wouldn’t there be a conversation where both parties are on the same page and decide together what they are or aren’t?

I didn’t watch SATC but as a teen saw too many people get their feelings hurt because one party thought they were together (usually girls) and the other didn’t and then friend group divided over who was right/wrong because the two didn’t think to communicate with each other about if they were together or not. Thought wouldn’t you have a conversation first instead of assuming. I wouldn’t assume after a few outings I was someone’s friend so why would I assume that I was someone’s girlfriend after a few dates.

Taught me to be upfront and honest from the very beginning what I was looking for instead of assuming the other person knew what I wanted or felt the same way.

Saying that, you could be honest from the beginning and some will still think you weren’t serious or didn’t believe them from what I’ve heard from others.

I think this is rose tinted spectacles. It hasn't been simple for a long time - but people were just more light hearted about it before. Now adays the problem is paradox of choice. All the window shopping online, is there someone else etc.

Some careers force women to move rurally to complete their training. So this might affect some woman’s relationships/dating.

The problems you are describing are more a consequence of online dating than feminism.

People in past generations most commonly met through friends or work or a shared pastime, so they might already know each other a bit or at least have some shared friends and acquaintances in common, and come from similar walks of life.

It wasn't like it is now where people are meeting up with complete strangers who they know only from an online profile.

All the hallmarks of the regular 'Let's Have a Heated Debate" poster(s). Controversial opinion first post then settling back to moderate the debate.

I do think dating and finding a relationship these days have become harder and more complicated. Whether feminism is the sole culprit for this, I am not sure. I would imagine it has contributed somewhat in that women do expect more from their partners (regarding heterosexual relationships). And why not, I guess? Usually, both partners have to work full-time to raise families, so gender roles have changed drastically. It’s no longer expected that women are just homemakers. I think, in some ways, we haven’t quite adapted to the change in gender roles and expectations, and this has become detrimental to authentic connection. That’s my opinion.

I have male friends who are finding the dating scene hard. I do think some women have unrealistic expectations of men and relationships in general. This puts unnecessary and unhelpful pressure on potential partners. I think this puts off men and this can be interpreted negatively by women as well, I.e. “all men are useless,” “men these days,” “dating apps are full of pond scum” etc. For me, what’s striking, is expectations. We live in such hard times generally, a relationship ought not be so pressurised. I feel it’s killed real connection. It’s like people (both men and women) are going into dating and relationships with a checklist of green and red flags. That’s not how true, genuine human connection works I feel. It’s like the antithesis of love.

I think we are living in a unique time, relationships wise, where gender roles, expectations have completely changed, and we haven’t quite caught up or understood this as a species.

Throw in dating apps, and social media, and we’ve got a bit of a shitstorm.

The big picture progress is essential but it hasn't always translated into dating feeling simpler

I really don't think that making dating simpler is one of the aims of feminism.

OK but that’s not anything to do with feminism. That’s just adults being incompetent.

To be blunt: if your relationships feel messy, open your mouth and sort them out.

Otherwise you are just wasting your own time and generating entirely unnecessary angst for yourself.

Well exactly? The problem is crap communication, not feminism.

I can't honestly say I've felt the confusion you describe though.

To answer your question, though — I always think of an anecdote of my mum’s from the seventies. She was “going out” at the time with a very abusive man who liked to shove her around as well as be verbally abusive. He was once tanked up on beer and shoving and shouting at her in the street when they were walking home from a pub. A police car pulled up alongside them. The copper wound the window down and said: “Now what’s all this?”

Bloke said all righteous, “This is my girlfriend!” “Oh sorry to bother you, sir, that’s all right!” grovelled Plod, and wound up the window and zoomed off.

OP, serious question - what are you getting out of these threads? This one and a couple of others today have been slightly less goady and a bit more open to an actual debate, but are you suddenly asking every question you've ever thought of? or is this some other issue? It's so strange.

But in the interests of at least treating all threads like they're genuine, dating might be less "complicated" in the "old days", but that doesn't mean that it was better. And certainly, not that relationships were better. RThere were alwasys confusions and lack of clarity and I can only imagine you're too young to have actually experienced any of this. I cetainly remember the never ending trauma of did he did he not like me, waiting for calls, over aonsing about every interaction. Misreading signals etc etc etc.

I'm not sure if prefer a world where we avoid point scoring by accepting women are sub-human and shouldn't have rights.

Also, I think you're dating the wrong people.

That’s surely down to personal lack of confidence though? All those things are quite simply dealt with through open conversations.

Good relationships are built on honesty and ongoing communication.

No relationship that can’t manage to cheerfully discuss who is paying is going anywhere.

But as I said above, this didn’t exist in the UK until recently - it was an American thing. There weren’t any paying for dinner rituals. People met at a pub or a club or at uni or a party or whatever, and then blundered their way through some awkwardness until it was wordlessly mutually agreed that they were “going out”. “Dating” in the American sense didn’t really exist. That’s why US series like SATC were so exotic - it was a whole set of rituals that just didn’t happen here. All the discussions around who should pay and are we exclusive and so on are actually on that show. They literally discuss them as issues in the show as part of the comedy!

I’ve read too many novels of the pre feminist era to think this is anything but bunk, sorry.

I just don’t think we have any remaining concept of how restrictive the social conventions on women used to be, and thank goodness for that. Yes we have some new restrictions we put on ourselves but nobody really cares.

Strange how we havent imported the way they deal with child maintenance debts isnt it.