To think most “nice guys” only act nice because they want sex?

If it's men who describe themselves using the words 'Nice Guy' it's not a generalisation, though. The term 'Nice Guy' is colloquially used by/about a very specific type of man, not just any men who happen to be nice (although I wouldn't expect everyone to know that). I think the conversation around 'Nice Guys' is quite an online thing - it's men who think they are entitled to a relationship just because they attempt to be nice, and then get pissy with women who turn them down.

For example, a man who says 'I know this girl and I've always been there for her, I've listened to her problems, I helped her move house, I've gone to gigs with her when she had nobody else to go with, she's cried on my shoulder when her husband was being an arsehole to her and she wanted advice. Anyway, last month she split up with her abusive husband and I asked her out on a date and she flat-out said she didn't see me in that way and that she'd rather we kept it as just friends. What the fuck? I've been nothing but a nice guy to her and now she does this to me? She's just been using me all along. Women are terrible because they date alpha male arseholes who treat them like shit and then just use nice guys like me for help and support without any intention of dating them.'

Still inside and she put nice guys in quotation marks in the title; it's a generalization about how she perceives men who refer to themselves as nice guys. Not men who are genuinely nice.

Its show not tell. You'll know if a man is nice by the way he treats people he has no sexual interest in. The niceness he shows to you while trying to have sex with you and how nice he says he is are not reliable.

Well I disagree - the very title is a generalisation of what she perceives as “Nice Guys”.

The problem is that this is exactly what is leading to incel behaviour. We should talk about it and bring it to light. It’s actually very worrying. Incels are growing in numbers and violence against women is not decreasing, is it?

OP's talking about bitter men who see women as vending machines that exchange niceness tokens for sex: misogynists who just about manage to keep their temper under wraps until they realise they're not going to get what they want, at which point the veneer comes off and they spiral into woman-blaming victim mode.

Just make sure your sons aren't like that and they'll be fine!

This is what I mean by the entitlement. That weird believe that access to a woman of their choosing should be granted based on them being “Nice” and them being “Nice” is what causes them to lose out on what is their’s by right.

I’ve been on all ends of this having been made to feel uncomfortable by men who either I am dating, approached by or friends with.

My friend: he was not able to accept any knockbacks. He would agonise for hours about why she did or said XY or Z but never able to accept any responsibility for his own part in whatever was going on. He was like this with women from the moment he started talking through to the breakup. His entire gripe was ‘why does this always happen to me? I’m a nice guy. I don’t deserve this’ and ‘all I am is nice and no one appreciates me’ and things like ‘all women want are bad boys and not nice guys like me’. If he bought them flowers he would expect a second date etc

I came across a lot of older divorced men through my dating career and a lot of them would even put in their profile ‘I’m a nice guy looking for a drama free life. No crazy women thanks. I want to spoil my queen. I’m just a simple nice guy who is looking to be appreciated by someone’

then if you didn’t sleep with them or give them a second date they would turn really mean

Is she generalising? She seems to be doing the opposite in talking about a very specific form of behaviour.

Yes I got that from the thread. I don’t really deal in generalisation as I find they do more harm than good personally.

It’s quite helpful. Any person referring to themselves as a ‘nice guy’ meaning that he’s somehow losing out on his allocated free woman because he is too nice, is an instant nope.

I’ve met, had sex with, and settled down with (and raised) lots of genuinely nice people who don’t have this kind of worldview.

Why don’t you tell us what’s going on in your life Op that precipitated this thread?

I could not get the TM to work!

If you listen to what we are saying, these guys are completely rigidly set in their mind they are ‘nice guys’. This means that they are always the victim, never deserve anything negative to happen to them and everything in life is unfair and never their fault.

Then there are genuinely nice guys who are just nice people and treat everyone well and don’t act like this

No one has said that genuinely nice people do not exist but there is a subset of men who are completely delusionally obsessed with this and use it as a way to be horrible to women

I meant more the ‘self-declared nice guy’ type,

Thankfuly I have never dated, been in a relationship with, had a friend or family member who has ever been to type of self declare as a “nice guy”

similar to all those mumsnetters who are just “I am too nice”

Yes but OP said they were not talking about men who are nice but self-described “Nice Guys”.

I think you mean, Nice Guys™. 😁

Heavens op, you must have one hell of a shite relationship history and view of men generally.

do you have children?

Yes - I get that I was talking more generally as I said on my post I quoted all of MN not just this specific thread. And as I said in my post there are men that are nice just because they are nice and do not expect anything in return.

This thread isn’t about all men.

It’s about Nice Guys.

I have to say I’m incredibly alarmed by the narrative I see in mumsnet with regards to men. Maybe because my house is mainly boys (family of 5, 3 of them boys). Don’t get me wrong I have had horrible experiences with men but since I have found my husband (20 years ago) I can say that nice guys exist. Not because they want something but just because they are decent human beings. And of course we are raising our sons to be the same. And goes without saying that my husband isn’t the only decent guy out there.

It would be interesting to see the data on that.

I think replies per message is a weird baramoter for success tbh. Depends on the content of the messages and intent of the messager.

Replies per message sent I think. I remember reading once that, on average, a man has/had to send something like 30 messages before receiving one reply, whereas women had to send 3 messages to receive a reply (those numbers are made up – something like that). But was thought to be down to that men populated dating websites 4 to 1.

You're bringing up two different things – older and divorced men (now?), and years ago on certain dating websites. How do the men now, away from dating sites, display it behaviourally?

Your male friend – did he complain when broken up with or passed over? So he was absolving himself of wrongdoing by blanket statements (to you) of being nice?

Often men who had a lot of knockbacks would be quite bitter and resentful and not understand why, because ‘I’m a nice guy’ and that you owe them a transaction in return for them being nice to you. When you don’t reciprocate they often turn nasty

Exactly this. Men who say this think being nice should be rewarded with sex.