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Black people don’t really matter but the loss of Charlie Kirk is a tragedy.

412 replies

QOrion · 14/09/2025 15:11

I posted this in response to a short thread on Feminism and Women’s Rights but I want more people to see it. I want to have my say, even if I’m late to the conversation, and even if most people don’t care. I don’t expect many replies but maybe I’ll make some people think about what I’m saying.

I guess none of you are black. It’s the only way you can go out of your way to highlight this man’s ’virtues’. I don’t believe anyone is born bad or is irredeemably bad, I guess that’s my Christian upbringing, but I also don’t understand the deification of this man and the need for many people on this website to paint him in the best possible light. He’s not the first public figure to be shot and killed, even this year. If those deaths were even mentioned on Mumsnet, they certainly weren’t given much attention.

I’d never heard of Charlie Kirk before he was shot and his death had little impact on me. I have serious issues in my own life, people are shot and killed in America every day and there is a lot of suffering going on around the world, a lot of atrocities committed. It didn’t seem to be an incident that affected me in any significant way, even when I discovered his position on transgender ideology. I share essentially the same position on transgender ideology with many people I don’t want to be associated with.

Then I read his comments about black people. I can’t wax lyrical about how Charlie Kirk was ‘decent’ and ‘respectful’. How, ‘Isn’t it nice he gave his political opponents a platform’. And I can’t feel any kind of kinship with people who, knowing what he’s said about black people, still feel compelled to highlight his good qualities.

Let me be clear: I don’t believe he should have been killed. I don’t even support the death penalty in any circumstance, so I can hardly support Charlie Kirk being killed. But I am learning, not for the first time, that Mumsnetters in general, and users of this subforum (FWR) tend to ignore black people and our concerns, until we are useful. Whether that is taking cases to court when much is made of the claimant’s ethnic heritage (why?) or the perennial ‘transgenderism is womanface, it’s offensive like blackface’.

You have no idea and I think it is possible you will never understand just how much slights about my ethnic heritage cut deep. Slights to my womanhood are pretty trivial in comparison. I think this is something white women will never understand. So, you go on singing the virtues of Charlie Kirk. We’ll be here the next time you need to exploit us for your own purposes.

OP posts:
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9
nomas · 15/09/2025 21:59

BollyKnickerz · 15/09/2025 21:57

And..... There we have it folks. Here it is : I'm "racist" . I just knew that gem was coming. I cannot even engage with someone like you.

You are the problem.

What else are you when you keep denying that one of the people who helped that poor woman was a black man?

What other word shouold describe your behaviour? Prejudiced?

BollyKnickerz · 15/09/2025 21:57

nomas · 15/09/2025 21:56

Aren’t you ashamed using that poor girl’s tragedy to push your racist agenda?

And..... There we have it folks. Here it is : I'm "racist" . I just knew that gem was coming. I cannot even engage with someone like you.

You are the problem.

nomas · 15/09/2025 21:56

BollyKnickerz · 15/09/2025 21:53

Oh I'm sorry.... Were a load of white people standing next to the victims and all walked away ?

Edited

Aren’t you ashamed using that poor girl’s tragedy to push your racist agenda?

nomas · 15/09/2025 21:55

BollyKnickerz · 15/09/2025 21:49

I suppose with the Arab "porta potty" parties you can't possibly conclude the non white men had power over those girls . No... I suppose we have to still apply the old critical race theory comparison hey. (That's doing wonders for cohesion by the way ) Some people on this thread need to just acknowledge that racism can and does include all races, including white people.

Someone mentioned Occam's razor. Well... The simplest answer is quite obviously that white people do indeed experience racism. Not the absolute acrobatics some on here are trying to conjure up to try to justify (according to CRT) why a white person still has more power than a black person in every given scenario. That theory is not only irrational and wild in places : it's dangerous.

The odd woman choosing to travel first class to be paid £30k for someone to shit on them is not racism. If it’s even real, it sounds like an urban tale.

I dread to think what some Only Fans accounts do here in the UK, like Bonnie Blue. Is that racism too? Or is that ok because Bonnie Blue is making money from sex with mainly white men?

BollyKnickerz · 15/09/2025 21:53

FuckRealityBringMeABook · 15/09/2025 20:47

Not seen many people post about the white man who shot three Ethiopian immigrants in late August either

Oh I'm sorry.... Were a load of white people standing next to the victims and all walked away ?

NotMyNigelFarage · 15/09/2025 21:53

FuckRealityBringMeABook · 15/09/2025 20:47

Not seen many people post about the white man who shot three Ethiopian immigrants in late August either

That was an odd case. The police said it wasn't a hate crime. There was some romantic element. Can't remember what.

I do remember though that the two sisters moved to the US after their father murdered their mother. Pretty tragic all round.

BollyKnickerz · 15/09/2025 21:51

Plastictreees · 15/09/2025 21:45

👏👏

You realise you've just quoted that poster who asked not to be quoted unless you actually have something to say ? 🤭

(Although I dare say they'll be fine with your applause and agreement of course ... )

nomas · 15/09/2025 21:50

juldan · 15/09/2025 20:33

What context is needed to what he says in this clip about Michelle Obama for example? He mocks her in a very nasty way. There is no context which would make it right.
The tone he uses when he talks about black people is disgusting.
And of all people he picked Michelle Obama who is more of a person than a million Charlie Kirks.

Anyway, I don’t see any point in engaging with you anymore. Stay happy in your adoration for that racist.

They hate Michelle Obama because she has more class than they could ever dream of.

BollyKnickerz · 15/09/2025 21:49

I suppose with the Arab "porta potty" parties you can't possibly conclude the non white men had power over those girls . No... I suppose we have to still apply the old critical race theory comparison hey. (That's doing wonders for cohesion by the way ) Some people on this thread need to just acknowledge that racism can and does include all races, including white people.

Someone mentioned Occam's razor. Well... The simplest answer is quite obviously that white people do indeed experience racism. Not the absolute acrobatics some on here are trying to conjure up to try to justify (according to CRT) why a white person still has more power than a black person in every given scenario. That theory is not only irrational and wild in places : it's dangerous.

Plastictreees · 15/09/2025 21:45

5128gap · 15/09/2025 20:43

Politely, would you mind not quoting me unless you actually have something to discuss? This is a busy thread, and it's frustrating to get a notification that someone has responded, only to find they actually have nothing to say.

👏👏

BollyKnickerz · 15/09/2025 21:38

5128gap · 15/09/2025 20:43

Politely, would you mind not quoting me unless you actually have something to discuss? This is a busy thread, and it's frustrating to get a notification that someone has responded, only to find they actually have nothing to say.

I do have something to say. You're sprouting nonsense. Critical race theory is a divisive tactic to beat innocent well meaning white people with.

5128gap · 15/09/2025 20:49

NotMyNigelFarage · 15/09/2025 20:28

I agree that people who feel powerless (emasculated?) will often try and exert power over those lower down the chain. I think this dynamic can be common with bullies too. However, I still think anybody can be racist. If a black person refers to a Japanese person as 'a chink' this is still racism IMO even if Japanese people are generally more privileged in most measurable ways.

All this punching up/down stuff is just an offshoot of identity politics IMO. I'm not saying it can't be argued as a specific dynamic but it doesn't invalidate traditional definitions of racism. Until it at least changes in the dictionaries the old definition still applies.

I don't disagree with the definition. I just think we are interpreting it differently is all. Funnily enough, I thought my interpretation was the 'old' one as it was explained to me in 1986!
I think we are in agreement where it matters anyway. Its been interesting to hear your opinions.

FuckRealityBringMeABook · 15/09/2025 20:47

BollyKnickerz · 14/09/2025 19:48

Unless I've missed it (which is possible?) I've not seen one thread on the poor young white girl in America who was stabbed senselessly and so violently by a black stranger and was left to die , looking terrified, and clutched herself in a ball until she collapsed and died in a pool of blood on the floor. All her fellow passengers (all black ) did nothing.

Now: we can pretend not to notice things or characteristics. Or we can start having very painful conversations. If the shoe was on the other foot and that was a black refugee stabbed by a white man and all the white passengers did nothing: we all know there would be anarchy.

So I don't think the divisional perpetual victim minority stance is helping cohesion is it.

We're all bloody victims of each other it seems.

Iryna Zharuvska I believe her name was.

Not seen many people post about the white man who shot three Ethiopian immigrants in late August either

5128gap · 15/09/2025 20:43

BollyKnickerz · 15/09/2025 20:33

What an absolute reach...

Politely, would you mind not quoting me unless you actually have something to discuss? This is a busy thread, and it's frustrating to get a notification that someone has responded, only to find they actually have nothing to say.

EarthaKittsVoice · 15/09/2025 20:41

Insertfootnote · 15/09/2025 07:38

Charlie was a devout Catholic so was deeply against abortion. He believed in traditional Christian values and the importance of the family. That doesn't make him a misogynist. I'm pretty sure if he'd been a devout Muslim with the same views his murder would be condemned by those same posters. But because he was a Christian white guy then he must be a nasty person.
I've listened to Charlie Kirk for years and not once seen him be anything but kind and respectful towards black people, gay people, trans people etc. Sometimes he presented statistics and research they didn't like but that doesn't make him racist or transphobic or whatever.

CK was protestant.

juldan · 15/09/2025 20:40

SpaceRaccoon · 15/09/2025 20:27

Okay this is embarrassing for you 😂

"you believe that “black” is as simply defined as a person of African descent, then the total number of black people in the world is about 7.8 billion (2020). Every person alive now, and every person who has ever lived is of African ancestry."

Like I said, total global population. I advise reading your sources before citing them, in future.

Ok, my mistake , should have read more carefully.Anyway even if there are only 1 million/billion black people in the world or whatever, I don’t believe they all posted on your feed so my point still stands.

FOJN · 15/09/2025 20:40

juldan · 15/09/2025 20:33

What context is needed to what he says in this clip about Michelle Obama for example? He mocks her in a very nasty way. There is no context which would make it right.
The tone he uses when he talks about black people is disgusting.
And of all people he picked Michelle Obama who is more of a person than a million Charlie Kirks.

Anyway, I don’t see any point in engaging with you anymore. Stay happy in your adoration for that racist.

OK then. Have a nice evening.

juldan · 15/09/2025 20:33

FOJN · 15/09/2025 20:21

There is context to what he said, I've done the work of going and listening to what he actually said so I could make up my own mind. I could write an essay on what and why I disagree with him but I did not think he was a hateful person. He was very clear that violence is never the answer.

What context is needed to what he says in this clip about Michelle Obama for example? He mocks her in a very nasty way. There is no context which would make it right.
The tone he uses when he talks about black people is disgusting.
And of all people he picked Michelle Obama who is more of a person than a million Charlie Kirks.

Anyway, I don’t see any point in engaging with you anymore. Stay happy in your adoration for that racist.

BollyKnickerz · 15/09/2025 20:33

5128gap · 15/09/2025 20:09

Yes, I agree a feeling a powerlessness can push people towards racism, which is as you say, exactly what we're experiencing with the rise of Reform.
However its important to remember who these racists are powerlessness in relation to. For this to be demonstrative that racism can flow in the opposite direction, from the powerless to the powerful, they would need to be powerless in relation to POC, which they're not.
They're powerlessness is relation to other white people more powerful than them. And in their frustration they're punching down on the people they still have power over, POC.

What an absolute reach...

Tandora · 15/09/2025 20:30

AliceMaforethought · 15/09/2025 16:23

Please don't scold the OP. Part of what she is objecting to is forced teaming and opinions coming as a package.

So? She mentioned that she holds intolerant attitudes towards trans people so I expressed my objection to that. I’m not required to be silent about any form of discrimination .

NotMyNigelFarage · 15/09/2025 20:28

5128gap · 15/09/2025 20:09

Yes, I agree a feeling a powerlessness can push people towards racism, which is as you say, exactly what we're experiencing with the rise of Reform.
However its important to remember who these racists are powerlessness in relation to. For this to be demonstrative that racism can flow in the opposite direction, from the powerless to the powerful, they would need to be powerless in relation to POC, which they're not.
They're powerlessness is relation to other white people more powerful than them. And in their frustration they're punching down on the people they still have power over, POC.

I agree that people who feel powerless (emasculated?) will often try and exert power over those lower down the chain. I think this dynamic can be common with bullies too. However, I still think anybody can be racist. If a black person refers to a Japanese person as 'a chink' this is still racism IMO even if Japanese people are generally more privileged in most measurable ways.

All this punching up/down stuff is just an offshoot of identity politics IMO. I'm not saying it can't be argued as a specific dynamic but it doesn't invalidate traditional definitions of racism. Until it at least changes in the dictionaries the old definition still applies.

SpaceRaccoon · 15/09/2025 20:27

juldan · 15/09/2025 20:23

Wrong. Black population.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/metrics/how-many-black-people-are-in-the-world
quick google was enough to find out.

Okay this is embarrassing for you 😂

"you believe that “black” is as simply defined as a person of African descent, then the total number of black people in the world is about 7.8 billion (2020). Every person alive now, and every person who has ever lived is of African ancestry."

Like I said, total global population. I advise reading your sources before citing them, in future.

juldan · 15/09/2025 20:23

SpaceRaccoon · 15/09/2025 19:57

@juldan see FOJNs post above.

Also:
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/stephen-king-charlie-kirk-comment/6391657/

Stephen King had to apologise, and it's a good example of the often deliberate misinterpretation of who Kirk was.

The left have reacted disgustingly and disgracefully and seem intent on doubling down and continuing to double down, including this thread where the OP, bizarrely, takes personal offense that a well known public speaker might be mourned by his followers after being publicly assassinated.

As an aside, 7.8 billion is about the whole world population.

Edited

Wrong. Black population.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/metrics/how-many-black-people-are-in-the-world
quick google was enough to find out.

How Many Black People Are in the World?

Discover population, economy, health, and more with the most comprehensive global statistics at your fingertips.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/metrics/how-many-black-people-are-in-the-world

FOJN · 15/09/2025 20:21

juldan · 15/09/2025 20:02

@FOJN
I am not justifying his murder. If you had read my previous posts on this thread you would have known that. However, objecting to glorifying someone who was racist among other things does not equal justifying his murder.
The things you mentioned are not hearsay or misinterpretation of his words. There are videos online of him saying these things during public appearances. His words were quoted by news outlets long before his murder so they are not AI fakes created by “bad lefties” to taint his name.

There is context to what he said, I've done the work of going and listening to what he actually said so I could make up my own mind. I could write an essay on what and why I disagree with him but I did not think he was a hateful person. He was very clear that violence is never the answer.

5128gap · 15/09/2025 20:20

Whoiam · 15/09/2025 19:49

No, you are being disingenuous. Affirmative action in recruitment means that the standards may be lowered to meet diversity quotas for minorities, such as Black individuals, transgender people, women, etc. This can result in hiring someone who may not have been fully qualified for the job. I used to work on planes, and I sometimes felt this way when I saw women in those roles. It’s not because I dislike women; I believe we are all made in the image of God, but because of similar reasoning.

When you 'worked on planes' are you saying that women weren't required to pass a test to fly them? Do you have proof of that?