Black people don’t really matter but the loss of Charlie Kirk is a tragedy.

Personally I just don't like to see male on female abuse used to perpetuate 'white man good, black man dangerous' stereotypes.

I don't think this is what's happening in many cases though. Morelike, this is the defacto response to anybody trying to raise concerns about certain cultural issues. Because as above it's cultures that are the issue and ethnicity is incidental. Not that there aren't some trying to stir racial divide, but there are also many that are genuinely concerned.

However where there is strong objective evidence of differences in offending patterns between men of different cultures, if this was put before me, I'd be very interested in considering it.

You've surely heard about some of the cases of honour killings etc? Immigrants or second generation UK residents who are murdered by their extended family when returning to their home countries, for bringing shame upon the family? You must be aware of what is happening in Afghanistan?

Must you encourage her to come back?😉
I will give her credit for an epic flounce. Haven't seen a Scarlett O'Hara act like that in awhile.

Personally I just don't like to see male on female abuse used to perpetuate 'white man good, black man dangerous' stereotypes.
However where there is strong objective evidence of differences in offending patterns between men of different cultures, if this was put before me, I'd be very interested in considering it. I'm already aware that women from different cultures experience different forms of abuse and that there are patterns to this. So I wouldn't shy away from that conversation.

It's usually indirectly, but plenty of people are branding those with concerns about immigration as racist. Some of the common responses are:

"But white men do it too".

"Most sexual assaults are by white men/somebody you know/etc".

"The problem isn't Muslim men, it's men".

These statements aren't wrong but they're used to try and deflect criticism away from misogynistic cultures/mentalities in a way that would never be seen in other situations. Essentially whataboutery.

Of course white men commit the majority of sexual assaults in majority white countries. However, when Afghan men are found to be 3x more likely to commit a sex crime and come from a country where 90% of men openly admit to sexually harassing women for fun, I think there are tangible concerns.

Why won't anybody address the 1200 sexual assaults in one night? Every single time people pretend they haven't seen the post. Why haven't we seen this type of thing before now given how common it is in some countries? Why aren't western men doing it?

Nobody wants to answer these questions but I don't think they're unreasonable given that we're the ones accommodating said men and will be living alongside them.

People are so outspoken on the trans situation but totally silenced by the 'be kind' narrative in this case. I mean, we always hear about the dangers of self ID etc and how so many transwomen are perverts/sex offenders, yet I'd wager the 1200 sexual assaults on that one night in Germany probably outnumber all European sex crimes by trans people in the last few years. Maybe the past decade.

Who has defended rape and misogyny?

I think racism should be condemned, but let's not make the mistake of thinking that men from misogynistic middle eastern cultures respect or condone our culture or that most of them would return any of our empathy towards them.

I can't look at Afghanistan and the rape culture endemic in places like Egypt and then defend these men when they do it over here. I truly can't comprehend people that do. Studies like the UN Women study found that 90% of men in four of the biggest ME countries admitted to sexually harassing women in public because it's 'fun'. And while women are dying under rubble and being forbidden to even go near windows, yet alone outside, people are too scared to even voice an opinion on this.

Prior to the last decade we'd never seen the types of mob sexual assault common to places like Egypt. Since then we've had numerous examples, including the 1200 women sexually assaulted in one evening in Germany (with around 500 estimated rapes on that night). Even over here more than 50% of Muslims believe homosexuality should be illegal.

Nobody should suffer violence or harassment for their views but we don't have to defend misogyny and homophobia. And we certainly shouldn't have to tolerate thousands of sexual assaults. But the same women that write articles on mansplaining are more likely to align with the rapists in this instance it seems. It makes me feel like a lot of people just care about virtue signalling more than anything else. That's the only explanation I can see for somebody not challenging rapists and misogynists because of their ethnicity.

Let us all be honest, this man was a nasty , individual.
I feel sorry for his children and I hope that they are better people than their father .

I didn't really agree with him but let's not pretend there aren't loads of smug lefties with similarly tribal attitudes who can't possibly accept that somebody who disagrees with them isn't a fascist/bigot/racist/etc.

Utter tripe.

He was a smug dickhead, who is good at debating, he was apparently a very close friend of Candace who has some extreme views, she denied his racism.

I'm not surprised he had racist stereotypical views, he is the a stereotypical middle class, all American white man, who only admired similar people who has a similar financial status.

One of the very tolerant left no doubt.

Charlie Kirk was right wing, if not alt-right. He was a clear racist, homophobic, misogynist who wrapped it all up in a more palatable decency so people overlooked his well dressed, middle class bigotry.. same as Farage, same as most of the Republican party.

He made racists feel safe in expressing their racism.

Don’t bother OP. Racism-denial is the default mumsnet position.

The same posters that jump to criticise people who bleat “not all men” in response to instances of sexism and male violence, will pull the “not all white people” card when it comes to discussing racism.

The same people that recognise that sexism against men is not the same as sexism against women, will argue that racism against white people is the same as racism against ethnic minorities, and claim white people are oppressed by other races.

Did these posters cry for Sonya Massey, gunned down by the police officer she called to protect her in her own home? Did they cry for Adriana Smith, who was kept on life support to give birth, despite being declared brain dead at 8 weeks pregnant? They did not weep for the many countless victims of Charlie Kirk’s destructive views and the victims of systemic racism in the States. But they weep for the perpetrator.

These same people would likely have cried for the white “martyrs” slain in Mandela’s fight to free SA from the chains of apartheid. They would have criticised the actions that caused a racist to be killed for their views, while ignoring the daily harm and suffering inflicted on minorities and the vulnerable because of despicable views held by those in power.

I agree, we should all shut the fuck up about it until we know the facts.

It's not been said in court that the murderer was more far right and a fan boy. Indeed, he reportedly hated Charlie Kirk and lived with his boyfriend who felt he was a woman, again, not hot to court yet. Whether he's left or right he's a murderer. There is so much online winding up mentally unstable people, lots of polarisation.

You do all realise that this shit is what his murderer wanted?

Charlie Kirk was right wing, if not alt-right. He was a clear racist, homophobic, misogynist who wrapped it all up in a more palatable decency so people overlooked his well dressed, middle class bigotry.. same as Farage, same as most of the Republican party.

His murderer was a Groyper, one of the Nick Fuentes fanboys who're even more Right Wing than Charlie was.
The entire point of killing Charlie the way that he did, and the shit he carved on the bullet casings was to sow discord and unrest.

Stop feeding it.

Absolutely. Also what the PP describes about Irish people (which was indeed absolute appalling and lingers on in some areas) is xenophobia not racism.

I don't think anyone can complain about being silenced over being called racist. Those who call out racism are the ones who have been silenced for centuries and continue to be with the pitifully lazy appropriation of the word "woke" to shut them down.

Anyway, you won't read this, because you've allegedly left the thread!

The irony is not lost on me that the same posters who keep repeating about the need for free speech and how people are trying to ‘shut them down’ by challenging their views, are reporting posts to get deleted because they don’t like the views expressed.

It just demonstrates the hypocrisy so clearly.

That may or may not be the case but I believe the issue still remains. When it isn't addressed people will then turn to whoever will address it, which is often those with more sinister motives.

Like, I doubt GC feminists would be aligning with the far right as some are if there were more people on the Left that were happy to have the discussion on women's rights.

But to be clear, I don't like racists. I live in a very multicultural part of the country and my last two employers before this one were Sikh. I work with a lot of Pakistani/Indian/British Jamaican/Polish/Romanian people in the construction sector - that's just the most common nationalities. It's far more diverse than any white collar job I worked in previously, probs partly because having good written English isn't a priority. Oftentimes passable spoken English is sufficient.

I'm not talking about skilled Polish people coming here to be tradesmen/work in construction. I'm talking about mass unskilled migration from the Middle East.

The rhetoric is always about xenophobia towards them but tbh it doesn't exactly help when they do things like sexually assault 1200 women in one night as happened in Germany. In spite of all the people saying "white men do it too" there's nothing else really comparable in our lifetimes. It's very common in the middle east, however.

This is why people have issues with these men and not with Ukrainian refugees. It's about culture not skin colour.

He had 2 daughters who he and his suitably blonde wife were going to bring up to despise people different from themselves.

I suspect whatever I'd say, you'd find it angry.

Yes DEI initiatives have sought to recruit Black pilots among other things. The problem comes in when that is assumed to mean, as CK apparently did, that standards are lowered. The US aviation authorities have been very clear that that is not the case. And frankly anyone who thinks the aviation authority is going to risk planes falling out of the sky because of woke is thick as.

@QOrion

"I think this is something white women will never understand"

Although it's not "all" white women (*insert wry laugh) I totally agree with you. (with respect to these boards)

And you don't even mention the number of "I'm white" who feel they can/should invade the Black Mumsnetters board!

Even whilst offering support it's both arrogant and patronising, to me. Just keep off.

Us white people CANNOT possibly know the experience of a black person in the UK, naïvety or ignorance?