Black people don’t really matter but the loss of Charlie Kirk is a tragedy.

I don't know much about CK but I think Hirsi Ali makes some good points, even if I don't agree with her on everything.

That event was New Year's Eve, December 31, 2015, January 1st, 2016. And in Cologne, people go out and celebrate and they drink. And I think the women, especially the women had no idea that this time it was going to be different. What they didn't know was about a game called the rape game. And this is very common in various North African countries, various middle Eastern countries. And what happens is you get a group of men, a large group of men who form three concentric circles, an inner circle that they pick a victim or a number of female victims, and they surround them and they start attacking these women.

And then there's the second circle, which is cheering the rapists on. And then there is a larger outer circle that is keeping outsiders from coming into that circle. And this is something that obviously the German women in Cologne had never experienced before and over 500 and what? I think I have the number in the book, reported that they were raped and robbed and groped and harassed and subjected to this particular horrifying game. And unfortunately less than 50 of those cases made it to an investigation and almost no one to a conviction.

First of all, I think we have to take the time to understand where these men come from. Some of these societies are still tribal. They are religious and they've been influenced by radical Islam for many decades now. So there are young men now in their teens and twenties who were born into an Islamist society, not just a Muslim society, but an Islamic society. And then you have also societies where order is completely broken down. Places like Syria, Somalia, Afghanistan. So even the existing tribal order or religious order is just completely broken down and that means that these young men are exposed a great deal of violence, especially a great deal of violence against women, that's number one. Number two, even where there is some form of order and tradition. Women are divided into good women versus bad women.

And good women are those who are obedient and submissive and stay at home and are covered from head to toe. And everyone else is a bad woman who doesn't live by that code. So when these men come to Europe, when they come to the west and they see women dressed as they please, free, going about their business, they think of them as bad women. And on top of that, as one Egyptian friend told me who is male, these men, when they think about European women, their only knowledge or acquaintance with European women or white women is through Hollywood movies, pornography and so on. And so they come extremely prejudice thinking these women are prey. They're there for the taking and their men do not protect them. And so that is why for them it seems sort of natural to play the rape game in their twos and threes and more.

And they look at this women and they attack them, they have no empathy for them. And I was talking to some of the perpetrators and witnessed some of these court cases, the men, even after they're convicted or during the trial process, everyone is looking for them to express some sign of remorse and there is none. There is no empathy. There is not remorse because the men who perpetrate these acts don't think that they've done something wrong. In fact, many of them feel that something wrong is been done to them by dragging them to court or sentencing them. So it's just a glaring culture, a glaring clash of cultures and values and a clash of civilizations.

I think that if you have people who are Muslim, but not Islamist, when they come into Europe or America, if you take them through a process of immersion in the values, the norms, the culture of democracy and liberalism and tolerance and equality, that's one thing. If you just say, "Well, you're welcome and you have access to all the services that the welfare state has to offer, which is free shelter, free education, free health care, free food." But you don't educate them, they end up going to the Islamist platforms or rather the Islamist platforms come and recruit them and preach at them.

And so, I think it's an understatement to say that there is this clash of values, but right now it's the Islamists who are working very, very hard through their channels of dour or proselytization to win the hearts and the minds of the immigrants, refugees, the asylum seekers, the European leadership is doing very, very little to win their hearts and minds. They're giving them free food and free healthcare, but they are not giving them or encouraging them to take any part of their values and their norms.

https://www.biola.edu/blogs/think-biblically/2021/immigration-islam-womens-rights

She does not hold intolerant opinions about trans people at all. Your opinions on womens rights are intolerant and hateful and misogynistic.

I don’t think you have a clue about the complexity of the issues you are discussing, or the very real and prevalent harms of racial profiling / stereotyping/ generalising. Don’t you understand that the views you are promoting are the dominant ones? Because they play into racialised stereotypes.

Violence against women and girls is absolutely rooted in social norms/ cultures. The cultures/ norms that condone/ excuse/ support VAWG exist across all nations and ethnic groups. We can discuss/ challenge these cultures, without simplisms , generalisations or racial essentialism .

Charlie Kirk was himself part of/ a promoter of such cultures. He argued that wives should submit to their husbands, that women should be financially dependent on men, that they only need to go to uni to find a husband, that they belong in the domestic sphere , that they should be denied basic autonomy over their bodies, health and reproduction. He believed in forced pregnancy and birth for child rape victims.

It was astonishing that when I tried to call this out on another thread a load of mumsnetters jumped in to say I wasn’t allowed to discuss how misogynistic and violent these beliefs are because they were just “Christian” and I wouldn’t be allowed to say that if he were Muslim. What utter rubbish.

There are people of all faiths and none , and all ethnicities and none , who share these beliefs . and there are people of all faiths and all nationalities and all religions who reject them. challenge the ideas,- describe the ideas- not the person , and stop using race and skin colour and nationality and immigration status as a weapon to deflect when the perpetrator is white (oh he wasnt a bad guy, he was just an regular American Christian) and to demonise when they are brown (Islamic cultures are misogynistic and violent). Neither of these generalisations are true / reflect reality.

Although I'm guessing in the above example it wouldn't be specifically aimed at white MC women. But if privilege shields people from discrimination then surely white feminists are less impacted by sexism?

What about when a builder catcalls a middle class businesswoman? Is it just 'offensive' rather than misogynistic due to the social power imbalance?

It's usually indirectly, but plenty of people are branding those with concerns about immigration as racist. Some of the common responses are:

"But white men do it too".

"Most sexual assaults are by white men/somebody you know/etc".

"The problem isn't Muslim men, it's men".

These statements aren't wrong but they're used to try and deflect criticism away from misogynistic cultures/mentalities in a way that would never be seen in other situations. Essentially whataboutery.

Of course white men commit the majority of sexual assaults in majority white countries. However, when Afghan men are found to be 3x more likely to commit a sex crime and come from a country where 90% of men openly admit to sexually harassing women for fun, I think there are tangible concerns.

Why won't anybody address the 1200 sexual assaults in one night? Every single time people pretend they haven't seen the post. Why haven't we seen this type of thing before now given how common it is in some countries? Why aren't western men doing it?

Nobody wants to answer these questions but I don't think they're unreasonable given that we're the ones accommodating said men and will be living alongside them.

People are so outspoken on the trans situation but totally silenced by the 'be kind' narrative in this case. I mean, we always hear about the dangers of self ID etc and how so many transwomen are perverts/sex offenders, yet I'd wager the 1200 sexual assaults on that one night in Germany probably outnumber all European sex crimes by trans people in the last few years. Maybe the past decade.

So? She mentioned that she holds intolerant attitudes towards trans people so I expressed my objection to that. I’m not required to be silent about any form of discrimination .

Unless there's more context that's pretty bad. I could almost see his point about black pilots (not saying I agree) as he's saying that he might wonder if they'd got the job for diversity reasons if there were quotas - although from what I've read the tests remain the same so it's a moot point.

Personally I just don't like to see male on female abuse used to perpetuate 'white man good, black man dangerous' stereotypes.

I don't think this is what's happening in many cases though. Morelike, this is the defacto response to anybody trying to raise concerns about certain cultural issues. Because as above it's cultures that are the issue and ethnicity is incidental. Not that there aren't some trying to stir racial divide, but there are also many that are genuinely concerned.

However where there is strong objective evidence of differences in offending patterns between men of different cultures, if this was put before me, I'd be very interested in considering it.

You've surely heard about some of the cases of honour killings etc? Immigrants or second generation UK residents who are murdered by their extended family when returning to their home countries, for bringing shame upon the family? You must be aware of what is happening in Afghanistan?

Although I'm guessing in the above example it wouldn't be specifically aimed at white MC women. But if privilege shields people from discrimination then surely white feminists are less impacted by sexism?

What about when a builder catcalls a middle class businesswoman? Is it just 'offensive' rather than misogynistic due to the social power imbalance?

Well, there seems to be some data showing that Afghan males are 3x more likely to be convicted of sex crimes. Sky did an analysis of Farage's claim that they were 22x more likely and said it was more like 3x - article should be on first page of Google if you look it up.

There are lots of other stats. In France it was either asylum seekers or recent immigrants that were now responsible for 20% of the most serious sex crime category including rape, despite being 1-2% of the population. In another country it was something like 50% of gang rapes in the last five years.

I can probs find the links from other threads but not right now as I'm due up at 4am. And of course the 1200 NYE sexual assaults in Germany.

On a different note. If white people can't experience racism due to power imbalance, can white women experience sexism from black men?

I've heard discussion around the misogyny in rap music but a black man from the projects is surely punching up against a middle class white woman so he doesn't have the necessary power for it to be sexism.

That they were better as slaves as their crime rates were lower then?

What did he say about black people that you disagreed with?

Of course. I work with vulnerable women, there are few forms of abuse I'm not familiar with unfortunately.
What I'm asking for is evidence of offending patterns that support the view that men, in the UK, because we need a comparator under the same law, from 'other cultures' are more dangerous than white men.
I know that some men come from cultures where some people in that culture support extreme misogyny, but I genuinely don't know how this translates to stats and risk in the UK. Do you? Beyond extrapolating from the fact that some Muslim men believe in honour killing, all 'men from other cultures' represent a higher risk.

I posted this in response to a short thread on Feminism and Women’s Rights but I want more people to see it. I want to have my say, even if I’m late to the conversation, and even if most people don’t care. I don’t expect many replies but maybe I’ll make some people think about what I’m saying.

I guess none of you are black. It’s the only way you can go out of your way to highlight this man’s ’virtues’. I don’t believe anyone is born bad or is irredeemably bad, I guess that’s my Christian upbringing, but I also don’t understand the deification of this man and the need for many people on this website to paint him in the best possible light. He’s not the first public figure to be shot and killed, even this year. If those deaths were even mentioned on Mumsnet, they certainly weren’t given much attention.

I’d never heard of Charlie Kirk before he was shot and his death had little impact on me. I have serious issues in my own life, people are shot and killed in America every day and there is a lot of suffering going on around the world, a lot of atrocities committed. It didn’t seem to be an incident that affected me in any significant way, even when I discovered his position on transgender ideology. I share essentially the same position on transgender ideology with many people I don’t want to be associated with.

Then I read his comments about black people. I can’t wax lyrical about how Charlie Kirk was ‘decent’ and ‘respectful’. How, ‘Isn’t it nice he gave his political opponents a platform’. And I can’t feel any kind of kinship with people who, knowing what he’s said about black people, still feel compelled to highlight his good qualities.

Let me be clear: I don’t believe he should have been killed. I don’t even support the death penalty in any circumstance, so I can hardly support Charlie Kirk being killed. But I am learning, not for the first time, that Mumsnetters in general, and users of this subforum (FWR) tend to ignore black people and our concerns, until we are useful. Whether that is taking cases to court when much is made of the claimant’s ethnic heritage (why?) or the perennial ‘transgenderism is womanface, it’s offensive like blackface’.

You have no idea and I think it is possible you will never understand just how much slights about my ethnic heritage cut deep. Slights to my womanhood are pretty trivial in comparison. I think this is something white women will never understand. So, you go on singing the virtues of Charlie Kirk. We’ll be here the next time you need to exploit us for your own purposes.

Personally I just don't like to see male on female abuse used to perpetuate 'white man good, black man dangerous' stereotypes.

I don't think this is what's happening in many cases though. Morelike, this is the defacto response to anybody trying to raise concerns about certain cultural issues. Because as above it's cultures that are the issue and ethnicity is incidental. Not that there aren't some trying to stir racial divide, but there are also many that are genuinely concerned.

However where there is strong objective evidence of differences in offending patterns between men of different cultures, if this was put before me, I'd be very interested in considering it.

You've surely heard about some of the cases of honour killings etc? Immigrants or second generation UK residents who are murdered by their extended family when returning to their home countries, for bringing shame upon the family? You must be aware of what is happening in Afghanistan?

I also worry we will get Reform government, which will be helpful for no one. But in a vacuum of discontent, misinformation and extremism thrives.
Vast numbers are disconnected across all areas of society , WC people who feel they can't get support/housing/jobs, the 'squeezed middle' who feel they are working harder and harder for very little benefit to their families, 'higher earners' who feel penalised by an increasing tax burden.

I don't think the underacheivement of white working class boys is due to racism, otherwise it would also apply to white girls too. It's a much wider issue around curriculum suitability, reduced ambition, gender roles changing and adjusting to that and probably a whole range of other reasons.

But to say that no white person has ever been on receiving end of racism is untrue, however it's not well reported on or publicised for fear of being shot down with 'you can't experience racism, your white' type comments. It's like pretending something doesn't exist will make it go away.

My husbands family are Irish, and they experienced significant racism when moved to England 'no blacks, no Irish' signs were commonplace. And discrimination can occur within people of same skin colour but different ethnic origins - Ireland for example remains quite insular in rural areas, with people from outside Ireland excluded from jobs, certain areas etc, the attacks of eastern European immigrants in Northern Ireland.

People go on the attack when they either feel superior/untouchable, or when they feel inferior/threatened/scared as a defense mechanism. My daughter received racist abuse because families in her class were scared she would 'corrupt' them - as a 5 year old wearing shorts in summer she was called 'white trash' 'slutty' etc and children whose families believed girls should be fully covered wouldn't play with her, even when weather got cooler and she was more covered again.

she hasn’t buried him yet. Look at yourself.

And Charlie Kirk’s legacy lives on through his wife. In her speech yesterday, she was flogging tickets to the Americafest conference, for which VIP tickets sell for $800 each, where people can listen to speeches by an array of right wing and far right white men.

She also said ‘you have no idea what you have unleashed’ and told Charlie’s fans ‘You know what to do.’

Charlie would be proud.

Also Newsmax may have been around for 25 years but they simply reshared Ngo’s tweet with no verification.

Researching them online shows they are a far right channel not an independent news source.