Thread 2 Turn your son in knowing he’d get the death penalty

I did not accuse you of actual trolling but to attempt to do so

Haha well that’s a creative new justification. I’ve had my posts deleted before for using a certain word that begins with “f” and refers to extreme right wing ideology. Perhaps instead of saying to a pp: “your ideology is “F” “, I should have said “your ideology is attempting to be “F”.” Do you think it would have made a difference to whether my post was deleted? I doubt it.

Also Can you please stop saying “hurty words” . It’s actually very unpleasant- the type of demeaning, belittling tactic used by bullies. I really don’t think Jesus would approve.

Finally, please note- Words do hurt and they are not harmless. We have laws in this country criminalising words that incite violence and hate speech. We also have civil laws that protect people in certain settings for being subject to discriminatory words, or words that constitute harrassment . There are very good reasons for these laws,

@Tandora ... it’s so much harder to see the human at the other end of it all ...

🙂

Charlie Kirk said something similar ... When you stop having a human connection with someone you disagree with, it becomes a lot easier to want to commit violence against that group ...

@Tandora Again, this is where the meaning and nuance and context of words matter. I did not accuse you of actual trolling but to attempt to do so. See the difference? No? I'm not surprised. Does it upset you? How do you feel when you think you are misrepresented? Do you think it's bad when you feel lies have been told against you? As you say, moving on ...

No, hurty words can only hurt your feelings. Hurty words do not kill. Human beings kill with weapons, not words. Although the word of God is living and effective, sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating even between soul and spirit, joints and marrow, and able to discern reflections and thoughts of the heart - as has been demonstrated here.

Agree and social media highlights the division more, because it’s so much harder to see the human at the other end of it all and to remember that actually we do have so much more in common that what divides us.

Difficult decision, but ultimately, he has killed and possibly will again. The next murder(s) are then on the family member as well.....

So, yes, I'd report.

This is so true. It’s not a cultural pendulum anymore, it’s a wrecking ball.

I had to check myself this week because I was in danger over taking a few too many paces over to the right to try and ‘counter’ the left. After CK’s death and the resulting rhetoric I am trying harder to be more centred.

I mean I haven’t read everything you have ever posted but based on what I have read, I do not think your views are extreme at all. Some of them may be different to mine but that doesn’t make them extreme.

If you came over to my house and burned it down because you disagreed with me, that would be extreme. I don’t think I have ever even seen you insult anyone either which is quite rare on MN 😂

I also don’t support hate speech, discrimination, incitement to violence nor actual violence but I would suspect that the only difference is that I may have a more narrow view on what I would consider hate speech or discrimination.. as in, you may say something is discriminatory whereas I may disagree. But that’s just a differing opinion over nuance. Nothing more. I also may have different views on what consequences are for those things. Or maybe I wouldn’t because we haven’t actually discussed it but that’s beside the point, my point is none of us, that I can see anyway, are that different from each other.

What has Bob Vylan got to do with the conversation please?

I thought this was a thread about CK and his assassin. Or in order for me to express an opinion do you require me to know and list every single person in the world who I think has said something offensive?

What ridiculous whatabboutery.

I was not aware of Bob Vylan's comments about CK's death. I would not repeat them. I think the first and third statements are nasty and gratuitous.
To be fair, I can't help finding the middle one quite funny in a dark humour way. It tickled me, I cannot lie.

@tandora

Interesting that you've picked apart the EK saying evil doers
Yes... there are more than one.

Yet the Bob Vylan "rest in piss.
Pronouns was/were
You fuck about you get banged"

Have completely missed your virtuous radar. Is this not equally inviting tension and hate. Or is it okay because it suits your views?

I am very much of the opinion that politically speaking many of us on this side of the Atlantic would be most happy in the centre or slightly left/right of centre.
Going too far left or too far right is a bad thing. End of.
What I think is happening now is there was a perception that good people are on the left and old fashioned or backward people were on the right. As the left has marched further left it’s become extreme. There is no decent centre now so in order to counter balance the left some people are going right and too far right in many cases. I think we humans are incapable of staying in centre Leanne and are constantly going from one extreme to another.

I agree with all of this.

I imagine some of my opinions would fall into the category of what you perceive as 'extreme', but as you say part of the issue is that we may different views on what counts as being extreme.

However, I do not support discrimination, or hate speech, of any kind, nor do I support incitement to violence, and certainly not actual violence. Nor do I celebrate violence/ killing. I do not support killing people regardless of who is doing the killing, or what the person has done. To return to the OP, I would not turn over my child to authorities to be put to death.

I do, however, think that CK was a person with dangerous ideas, doing bad things in the world. I think the same goes for his widow.

I agree, that’s why I typed it ‘sides’ because even using that word suggests an us against them mentality. It was a lazy way of explaining it on my part because how else do I word it?

I don’t support extremism, in whatever guise it takes, whatever the political views are… if they are extreme then I’m out. But I guess that’s the problem as we all have a slightly different definition of what is classed as extreme.

Free speech is always an interesting one because you will find almost nobody will say that speech shouldn’t be free but likewise, almost nobody would condone incitement to violence. So we all draw a line somewhere, it’s just where we draw the line that differs.

The point being I think that we all have more in common with each other than we realise.

Oh please. It's against mumsnet guidelines to accuse me of "trolling".

It's also completely false.

Saying things you happen not to like is not 'trolling'.

Annnyways. Moving on.

You see, this is where reading without understanding is a problem. I did not say you are a troll - to do so would be rude and as you say, against guidelines. I said your attempts to troll. One is a noun one is a verb. I used it as a verb. Report if you must. That's fine. It did Dr Upton a lot of good to report somebody for using hurty words. It won't change the fact you attempted to disrupt a thread discussing men who demand to enter women's space because they pretend to be women. Which is one reason why I can understand you hating on Charlie Kirk.

I think talking in terms of 'sides' is part of the problem tbh. What 'sides'? Not everything is as simple as there being an 'us' and a 'them'.

I don't agree with any people who use violent and inflammatory rhetoric.

Nor do I support people who peddle far right ideology for money and influence.

Calling another poster a troll is against MN guidelines.

There are inflammatory remarks coming from both ‘sides’
I didn’t find her speech particularly palatable but I would find your views more palatable if you could at least acknowledge that people inflaming tensions on both sides need to pack it the fuck in (see example above about Bob Vylan)

Of course you may not care if I, or anyone else, finds your views palatable - as is your prerogative.

Words are not harmless! Stop pretending they are.

You do know we have laws in this country criminalising incitement to violence and hate speech.
These are people using words. It is a criminal offence. There is good reason for this.

CK did not deserve to be shot for his words, but he absolutely deserves to be criticised. He is accountable for his words. And his actions - he was instrumental in securing the election of Trump. The words of CK are not/ were not harmless. Same for his widow.

😂

I have seen your attempts @Tandora to troll and disrupt another thread elsewhere on this board. Having seen that, I'm sure you will hate everything Charlie Kirk stood for, especially his views on men who want to invade women's spaces by claiming they are 'women'. 😶

She didn't say "evil do-er", she said "evil do-ers". This is absolutely key. Her rhetoric was violent, inflammatory, unnecessary and dangerous.

And as a decent person he also hated misogyny, racism and homophobia. None of those are the teachings of Jesus who is Charlie and Erika Kirk's Lord and Saviour.

Oh please.

That posters who think you shouldn't kill people because you don't like their ideas, are far right?

For the last time - I have not seen one single person on mumsnet justify the killing of CK. (If they did, I'm pretty sure this would be deleted by moderation.) It was wrong to kill him. It's wrong to kill anyone.

What I am objecting to is people minimising how dangerous the ideology CK was promoting is. Minimising the misogyny. Minimising the racism. Minimising the attitudes to things like gun control that created the very conditions of violence that led to his death.

The insistence that we must mourn the loss of this man without discussing what he stood for / contributed in this world - similarly we not criticise his widow for the rhetoric she is now putting out there and the vows to continue to promote his harmful and dangerous mission.

Think of the arguments TRAs use : 'Words are violence'. Do you want to go down that road

Our violence: a man can never be a woman.

Their violence: fascist scumbags should die. (Just look under any tweet by JK Rowling when she mentions trans people.

‘Exile' who from public life? All Democrats? Democratically, I assume?

Basically any Democrat caught cheering for Kirk’s death should be stripped of their position. Goes for government hires as well.

And when you say people who criticised Kirk are criticising half the country, does this mean half of the US shares his most controversial views? (It was generally these which caused the dislike of many, not simply being a conservative Christian)

They are middle of the road views for conservative Christians and basically are typical Republican values.

So half of the US believes that raped 10yos should not be allowed an abortion,
that gay relationships are like a drug or alcohol addiction, and gay people are 'groomers' who, as he quoted Anita Bryant : 'cannot reproduce so must recruit'

Considering that total abortion bans are on the books in several states, yeah, it’s not an extremist position. But I would have invited Kirk to speak about the toll pregnancy would take on someone that young, and I’m certain he’d listen and come away with his mind changed. It’s happened with him before.

And ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’ attitudes are quite common among Christians, yes.

that Michelle Obama didn't achieve her career via brain power but bc she's black

He is probably wrong about Obama but he’s NOT wrong about KJB or people like Claudine Gay.

that wives should submit to their husbands...

Cannot expand on it as idk the context.

I agree. I condemn CK being shot. I would condemn BV being shot, and I would condemn CK’s murderer being executed.

And you’ve hit the nail on the head with that last sentence. We can’t stand to hear things we don’t like so rather than try and debate it or understand it or even walk away from it, it gets killed.