Gun control in the US

Yes, in a photo of a Republican rodeo, I saw cars w stickers saying 'Shoot your local heroin dealer & pedophile'. I know it was a joke, but I do think the mindset that people need to defend themselves violently is ingrained...

On drugs, wasn't it Big Pharma who got people hooked on opioids?

People could still have guns w licences. In the UK you can own a gun, and other places. It just needs to be locked away when not in use.

I appreciate your point about fascism. There ARE a lot of liberals who support guns for that very reason though. The sub r/liberalgunowners exists for a reason.

Your point about mental illnesses : I agree. I find it v uncomfortable when people on MN say trans people should not be allowed guns & transgenderism should be reclassified as a mental illness so they can be disarmed. I am very GC but it feels wrong to take guns from people who may be in danger. Trans hate crimes are exaggerated, but they are at risk : the horrible torture and murder of transman Sam Nordquist this year haunts me since I read about it : Massive TW

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Sam_Nordquist&ved=2ahUKEwiIm6OqgtePAxXvUUEAHRLqE64QFnoECCQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0iMca7579hLqJYg37Afq2J

Just to give further context to the gun position in the US:

many states have a “stand your ground” defence. Which basically means that if you hear an intruder in your home you can get up, grab your gun and shoot them. Stand your ground is the defence. It’s completely disproportionate to the idea of self defence that we have, where you need to be under real threat of harm from the intruder.

secondly the gun lobby is extremely well organised and is constantly making representations about legislation that it thinks will impact the right to bear arms. I listened to a podcast (higher learning but sorry I can’t recall the episode title or number) which gave examples of the types of laws they had lobbied against because they believed they could limit gun laws. For many it was hard to see the connection between guns and the legislation. In many it was just a case that “rights” would be limited.

I do not see an answer. The only thing I can see working is that the US loses their economic and social power in the world. That might make them change. It’s not a country I would ever visit again.

V interesting. Can I also ask why problems like drugs, depression, gangs are worse in the US? Obvs a lot of factors...

Thank you, this is v interesting. I've seen pro gun descendants of Armenians or European Jews cite that as the reason they support 2A.

Could guns have stopped Hitler, Mussolini, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Armenian genocide & others? I am still thinking about this...

Arguably the risk of this is also that you get Jan 6 style insurrections potentially where people w guns etc try & overthrow a legitimate government. And how do you know the gun-wielding people who toppled a tyrant would not become tyrannical themselves?

I would also counter that in the UK you can keep a gun w a licence. If the gov did become tyrannical, there would be a lot of people w guns in safes to reckon with.

Yes, and on politics forums on Reddit, I've seen them say the school shootings that happen are 'not very many'. Maybe in such a large country some feel that way? It's a hell of a lot more than any European country tolerates, or Australia for that matter!

Yes, and on politics forums on Reddit, I've seen them say the school shootings that happen are 'not very many'. Maybe in such a large country some feel that way? It's a hell of a lot more than any European country tolerates, or Australia for that matter!

People talking about banning cars, alcohol as analogies. Surely it’s more about rules, raising awareness etc not banning. There rules about drink driving, speeding etc. Safety features in cars, rules about manufacture of alcohol.

So restrict/ban the sale of certain guns. More rules about licences, storage of guns and ammunition.

I feel so sad for his family, but it’s really ironic how he died considering he was so pro guns

Sure some, but the real activists tend to be kind of extremist nutters which makes things worse overall. Kind of like their pro-choice, it's great to have an abortion at 35 weeks people. The ones pushing for this stuff being so extreme mean that many people think that attempts to talk about effective regulations about things like storage are really Trojan horses.

It used to be that the NRA did a lot of work on gun safety stuff but that has not been the case for some time now, it's all too polarised.

I'm Canadian, not British, but at least traditionally, we have a lot more guns than people do in the UK, so maybe I get it somewhat.

Fundamentally, Americans think that if their government ever became tyrannical, or they were in a position where they needed to fight for their survival as a people, they have the right to do so with dangerous weapons. I think it's pretty clear how this view came out of their history, but it isn't so strange really even to others - in countries that lie close beside hostile nations, people also value the right to keep arms close at hand.

I suppose maybe the best way for a Brit to think of this is to ask yourself - if your government went crazy and started locking up citizens or something, using the army as a tool, would you think it was within the rights of your citizens to take up arms against them?

If you think it would be, then you have in a basic way the same understanding as Americans on this. If you don't, then you believe that citizens should just sit back and take whatever shit an evil government imposes. Or that in an invasion, it is only up to the military to respond, citizens outside the military have no right to defend themselves.

Now, from there what I would say is that to Americans, the right to be able to fight against an oppressive government with arms is meaningless if citizens don't actually have access to them and the ability to use them.

So while they do almost all think there can be some legitimate restrictions or rules around guns, they see the balance as being on the right of citizens to access them so in many states they set a high bar for the government to regulate.

They might be inclined to say that Brits are only so blase about such rights because they are complacent about the possibility of failure of the state or invasion.

Of course this leaves the question of mass shootings, gun crime, and the rest. Many Americans may in fact agree that some gun laws might be better formed. However, they will also tend to say that the real problem is not the right of citizens to access guns (and after all, Americans are not the only people who keep guns at home.) The problems are things like gang culture, the drug trade, depression, inadequate policing, and the weird culture that has grown up since Columbine that sees mass shootings as a way to make a kind of ultimate statement.

Because all goddam Americans have the Right to defend themselves according to their Constitution

Transmuted into their current gun crazy culture.

As in Bang Bang. You're Dead.🇺🇸

The thing is, the second amendment wasn't ever about every Tom, Dick & Harry being armed to the teeth. It was so that they could raise militias in a hurry for defence purposes as they didn't have a standing army. Everything in the world has changed since then & the 2nd amendment is now become perverted from his original purpose. They certainly have a standing army!

...or Canada.

The UK doesn't actually have a particularly bad knife crime problem, it's actually one of the safest countries in the world. Not that you'd believe it from the right-wing press. You are more than three times more likely to be stabbed to death in the US than in the UK. That's despite American murderers having a greater choice of weapon to use.

I'd be delighted if retesting was required when renewing a driving licence. I view it as ridiculous that you can pass your test at 17 and carry on driving forever so long as you don't get caught egregiously breaking the law and don't divulge anything on the self-assessment questionaire at 70.

I'd set retesting at the same interval that photocards get renewed. Every ten years until 70, every three after that. I have to be regularly assessed at work to operate potentially dangerous machinery, why shouldn't everyone? I'd even insist on proper medicals like I get at work.

Driving is a privilege, not a right.

So you'd just do nothing? How defeatist. There is nothing to lose from trying.

Salami tactics are required - one slice at a time. Bring back FAWA (preferably without a sunset clause this time). Remove the private sales exemption from the Brady Bill. Rather than proactively enforcing (which yes, would be difficult), enforce the rules reactively. Incel gets hold of parents' weapon because it isn't secured properly and uses it to commit crime? Lock up the parents. Kid gets killed because their parents had left a loaded gun propping open a door (yes, people really are this careless)? Lock up the parents. Gun used in crime is found to have been obtained from a private seller without registration? Lock up the seller. Gradually you will change the culture and soften the populace up for a system where there are periodic police checks on registered gun owners, like there are in the UK.

@Fraudornot journey through time podcast episodes 23 24 25 are really interesting. Charting the evolution of guns, NRA and 2nd amendment.

Not, I presume your country? Keep your beak out, honestly. America is a very young country, born out of revolution, and shaking off what they saw as oppression. They have a distrust of government, any, government, which we can't even comprehend. Honestly, don't do this. It's not a logic thing. It's a gut thing. And you will never, ever change it.

I am a Brit who lived in the UK until I was 52 and moved to the USA 23 years ago. I think it is very hard for us Brits to wrap our heads around this issue.

Firstly it's hard to comprehend the sheer number of guns there are floating around in the country. There are 340 million people in the USA and over 500 million privately owned firearms according to 2024 estimates. We don't know precisely because there is no national gun registry and there are plenty of unregistered firearms around. About 40% of US households own at least one, but gun owners often own many.

Because of this availability, many people who otherwise would not be interested in owning a gun feel compelled, in certain areas, to buy one for "self-defence" though such evidence as there is (but who needs evidence?) suggests that they are not particularly effective as such.

Hunting with guns is a much much bigger deal over here than in the UK, and some people do literally depend on hunting for at least some of their food, especially in rural areas. It's hard if you are British to really comprehend the effects of distance on lifestyle.

Americans take the Constitution, and especially the 2nd Amendment, very seriously, and generally speaking they don't like government interfering with their lives in ways that would seem entirely normal and acceptable in the UK.

Why wouldn't you have a gun? is what I was asked by an American. He and his wife had one in their cars. Can't imagine the chaos over here if we had unrestricted access to firearms. It's also a huge industry and the makers and the NRA lobby Senators to protect the gun industry. Google a pc of the HQ in Washington

I grew up with shot guns in our house in Ireland BUT these were used for 1 purpose and that was for shooting game ie food
DH also has guns as a hobby, he jumped through hoops to get his license and very strict laws on storing them. Again this is for leisure (he shoots in Bisley). These are used for nothing more than sport.
We’ve had 1 school shooting in the UK and laws were tightened up even more.
i do not understand this culture in America 😡

Because people like Charlie Kirk don't want gun control. Ain't karma a bitch?

I hate guns and find it shocking you can buy one so I read a lot on this. Also I must add I have been to America a few times and remember seeing a gun shop, in the UK the handful of times I’ve seen a gun is when I’ve seen armed police (which I find reassuring - oxymoron)?
Their view is the more people that have guns the more protected and safe they are. Should there be a shooter the best answer is 10 more ‘good people’ shooters to protect those who don’t have guns. Also it’s in their rights ‘to bare arms’ and many won’t come down from that ‘right’. They also cite the UK with no guns as having a huge knife crime, which in parts of the UK they’re not wrong.
In my view, it’s important to recognise the other point of view, but I’d prefer no one at all had guns, and no knives.