Can we discuss 2nd ammendment? Trying to educate myself about US gun laws.

the overall point is that legal gun ownership (as practiced in modern America) is not correlated with higher homicide rates.

That is a widely contested viewpoint, the is no over-all proof that there is, or is not, a correlation.

the overall point is that legal gun ownership (as practiced in modern America) is not correlated with higher homicide rates. (It is with suicide rates, but that’s a different issue).

So if your goal is to decrease gun homicides,
limiting legal ownership of guns is not going to move that needle.

I wish we lived in a world without guns - but I can see why Americans don't want to give them up - if the baddies have already got them then you want to even the score in order to protect yourself. It's a terribly system but I don't think it's repairable tbh

Isn’t the argument that legal gun ownership simply increases the overall number of guns in a society.

@notimagainI think you make a valid point. We can’t influence how people feel, it may be wanted but realistically it’s up to the US to decide how they deal with it.

You can get a sense of this by looking at the top ten states or so with highest percentage of gun ownership rates.

Then look at top ten states with highest per capita rates of gun-related homicide deaths.

They aren’t the same.

(And the argument about guns being necessary to protect the people from the government….if people knew the extent and type of weaponry the US military has at it’s disposal….)

I honestly am one of the few Brits that doesn’t care about the US gun culture.

Most, or at least a powerful and large minority seem to share Kirk’s view that gun death’s are an acceptable cost of the right to bear arms so 🤷‍♀️

Even if the 2nd amendment didn't exist there would be many states that would allow gun ownership because that's what the public want.

Guns are just a huge part of American culture, especially in rural areas.

https://edition.cnn.com/us/school-shootings-fast-facts-dg

Bundy standoff 2014.

Enough of those and the US Army actually does have a fight on its hands. Add defection into that and it makes the 2nd Amendment perfectly functional.

Not sure I disagree with their rationale. And there are people willing to live and die by their defence of the 2nd Amendment. Charlton Heston would organise pro-gun rallies directly after school shootings.

CK died whilst verbally defending the amendment. This is why DT called him a martyr. He literally died on that hill.

Where did you get the stats on this? What countries are we comparing and how are other factors allowed for.
That would very surprising if true.

The right to bear arms makes as much sense as the right to arm bears. 🐻
And less sense than the right to bare arms 🙂

It’s really awful to hear of school shootings and child deaths from guns. Even if the difficult process of changing the constitution happened it would be hard to ensure everyone gave them up.

It was formed and passed in a very specific historical context and partly for political expediency: the ruling party needed to satisfy some demands of their political opponents. It's been given more power by a particular legal-political belief that's become stronger since Reagan, that it's possible to know the intention of the Founders and that this should be preserved at all times in the interpretation of and making of new laws (Originalism).

This is important because it means that fighting over the second amendment is not just a fight over gun control. It's a fight over conservative interpretations of US law and the kind of nation that the US is, and over a method of reading and making laws that uphold views that might be called traditional, retrogressive, or even bigoted depending on your particular political persuasion.

Gun ownership rates are only correlated with suicide by gun.

Homicide using guns is not really highly correlated with gun ownership.

Just under 30 amendments in 250 years so yeah, pretty difficult 👍

Woeful?

I'm being realistic...It's a subject for debate, sure, just don't expect complete agreement from all posters in the States, and certainly don't expect them to agree that Europe or the UK has got the laws right on this issue.

It used to be easy to own a handgun
in in the UK too.

All you needed was a licence which was a case of filling in a form, not having a criminal record, proving you owned a secure gun cupboard and being a member of a registered gun club.

The USA has something like 200 school shootings a year.

In the UK we had one.

Back in 1996.

We outlawed handguns.

As a result we haven’t had a school shooting in nearly 30 years.

Not being allowed to own a
gun anymore is a price worth paying for all those children’s lives in my (British) opinion.

Many Americans obviously feel differently.

…are we not allowed to talk about any life-threatening laws in any other country, as it’s up to that country to decide?

Shouod we extend that to the restriction of Abortion rights in the US? The oppression of women in Afghanistan, the execution of migrant workers in the UAE?

Not our country, not our problem ?? What a woeful attitude

The one thing I've learned over the years, during visits to the US, is that this very much a "their trainset" issue.

It doesn't really matter whether as a e.g. European you don't agree with the 2nd or don't understand...it's really a subject for domestic debate and sticking in your oar with a foreign POV, or examples of how it's done in x,y or z doesn't help.

…We aren’t allowed firearms in the UK .. and yep some criminals have them. The chances of me being caught up in a shooting are tiny, a mass shooting at my Daughters school zero.. we (as regular citizens) won’t be caught in a shooting. Unlike the USA, who combat criminals having weapons, by putting more weapons into circulation.

If the system works that well, why are there so many shootings?

When the regular shooting of children doesn't even make people question whether they are right to allow guns there's no hope.

There are around 400 million guns held in the US. If they were banned tomorrow it would take decades to make a difference. The genie is out of the bottle and isn't going back.

You also can’t discount how much of the United States is still wild. Most of the people I know who own guns use them for either self defense against wild animals or for hunting food.
Farmers are allowed to own guns in the UK but very few other people.

More children under the age of 18 in the US die of gun crime than anything else - including illnesses and car accidents.

Unfortunately the US will never give up its 2nd amendment so children will continue dying from gun violence.

Like the 18th? (Prohibition)