To think disruptive behaviour in schools is out of hand?

I think a local schooling with vocational ethos, physical space and movement, an emphasis on not sitting at a desk, basic maths/english, life skills should be more of an unstigmatised option - as it is in Europe.

I don't think employers will be queuing up to employ fourteen-year-olds, even on a reduced national minimum wage.

“It also highlighted the sheer number of teenagers who are allowed to drop out of school, and how they can often fall through the net of academies, social services, alternative learning provisions and youth services. The report looking into the three murders and another serious stabbing in the city centre that happened back in January and February 2024, and found that all ten of the children involved - both perpetrators and victims - had histories that involved not attending school.”

“I personally believe that school exclusion should be completely illegal, if possible,” she said. “I believe it's causing a lot of kids to be vulnerable because they're not going to schools. They've been excluded, they're going to alternative education schools.
"Some kids are getting moved out of areas that they're not familiar with, and then being located in schools with other children and being exposed to certain things that they may have not been exposed to prior", she added.”

“Everything is about relationship building and it's based on interaction of human beings. I do think that there's an element of the academisation and the education system that certainly in the last ten years sees education as a commodity as opposed to a human interactive service.
"We need to get back to that and recognise that children have emotions, they're just younger than you and they will respond in the way that human beings respond. Therefore how you interact with the children will set the tone for how and what comes back to yourself as the adult,” she added.

The drive to inclusion at all costs was started by David Blunkett who didn’t like the fact that being blind as a child meant he was separated off from all of the other local children to go to a blind school when he’d rather have remained with his friends. I agree that children with physical disabilities ought to be able to go to their local school if that school can provide them with a good education. But mainstream schools have a teacher and a class of say 30 kids. This works fine if all children can sit quietly and be quiet. It’s utterly useless if some children want to take up all of that teachers thinly-spread attention. The disruptors need to be educated elsewhere.

But where? Councils don’t have enough places and unwilling to build assets as they have no money. They can’t afford to provide the legally required services they’re required to and so are selling any buildings they can to get their hands on quick cash. The council could build and specialist schools, get disruptive children out of mainstream, allow other children to learn but there’s no incentive for them to do so when the policy of ‘inclusion’ is seen as a good thing.

We’re left in the situation where the council haemorrhages money on paying private equity run specialist schools £100k to educate each child, and taxi firms £000’s to drive that child miles to the nearest (miles away) school, and EHCP appeal costs, and the cost of training teachers that don’t stay, and the cost of treating children traumatised by being educated in a climate of fear and frustration, and ruining the education of our future workforce. What on earth do we think we’re doing?

I live in Scotland. The Scottish educational attainment is dropping off a cliff. The SNP government is wedded to inclusion as it sees it as ‘progressive’. They have banned permanent exclusion. It’s what they do. SNP ministers are simply too stupid to know how to run a country and it will be a cold day in hell before they’d admit they are doing anything wrong. Things aren’t going to change here. But I have hope for England. Hope. Just not with Bridget Phillipson in charge.

I think this thread is a nature v nurture debate.

Nature = the child is disruptive by nature and it’s their/the parents fault and they should be excluded for the sake of others

Nurture = with the right support, the child may be disruptive but we - as adults - can help them become less disruptive and access an education.

On Thurs I was in a very disruptive situation and me/staff agreed it was the worst we’d experienced.

On Fri, we met as a team and with excellent support from SLT we agreed strategies/rules (including a calming time area). Fri had the potential to be disruptive again and we were a member of staff down. We were all super alert and nipped any behaviour in the bud. It worked like a dream.

I’m fortunate enough to work in a school where they believe in valuing each child and that good behaviour is the responsibility of the school. It is private, and it is a school that wholeheartedly agrees with inclusion. They are also desperate to ‘keep’ their students due to the VAT hike.

I’m not experiencing the same in state. I think state schools used to be more nurturing. In my area, places are oversubscribed and a child with an EHCP - or deemed to be needing an EHCP -seems to be immediately stigmatised or rejected. Once a child is on a path where adults label a child as disruptive, unteachable - isn’t that just going to lead further drain on resources : crime, unable to get a job or contribute to the economy?
The ease with which my child was almost rejected (plus two other exclusions in my DC’s class before the age of 5) is shocking. The school has also stated that I should be grateful that they agreed to educate my child.

And I’m not sure finances are a huge problem as the LA gives the school £10000 pounds for my child (which isn’t spent on him) and have just upgraded a garage to rent out for Pilates etc costing £27000.

It seems to me there needs to be some thinking about what a right to education means and entails.

I don't think it should be one size fits all. And its not the same as child care. Some kids may have reached their academic potential before others. And not all learning needs to be school based either. it's important, I think, to consider what the goal is for the student.

But as far as disruptive kids go - yes, they have a right to access education, but like other kids also have a right to education.

Somehow the kids who aren't disruptive are treated as if they have don't have a right to education and they are the ones blocking the disruptive ones.

I think the key would be to not treat leaving at that age as the end.

It would be where many students went on to learn in a more vocational setting. Which might well mean learning more maths or other things, but the context and approach would be very differernt. They would come out with a real trade, be it welding or bookkeeping or hairdressing or something else.

The student wouldn't be missing anything any more than a student going on to more academic work would be missing other kinds of training.

No doubt some kids would retrain later, as adults, and that should be supported, but a lot wouldn't. In fact, right now I know plenty of university grads who retrained in trades or other occupations, so it's not like that doesn't happen already in both directions.

Some kids might go right into work, but that might allow them to gain some maturity if they wanted more education later. For some that makes all the differernce.

Nothing wrong at all - indeed it is to be expected and I did it with my own children when they were little. On the post I was referring to, a vociferous minority of posters were saying that they could not see why a small child should sit on their laps on public transport when it was crowded so that an adult could have the seat. I am singing from the same hymn sheet as you - such behaviour is entitled and extremely selfish.

From a teaching perspective, my experience is of a lot of kids who are disruptive having parents who give zero fucks about education.

Calling home is pointless because they just shrug it off. There is no support in the slightest.

In my experience it is rarely kids with additional needs who play up, with the odd exception of dyslexic kids sometimes acting out to cover the embarrassment of not being able to read well.

Parents of kids in private give a shit because they're paying for it. They hate the thought of the money being wasted an d have high expectations of both the school and kids.

Are they not also their parents and their own problem.
Or are we still on the bandwagon of the biggest problem causers and takers not having to have any responsibility at all?
So we live in a society of threat?
Give us what we want, let us do what we want or else?

If you think having hordes of children not in school, not being educated or safeguarded and basically being given up on is not going to in any way impinge on your or your children’s lives, either as children or adults, you are living in fantasy land or on a very remote island. The impact on crime, mental health and benefits alone would be massive. I’m afraid part of being in society is that those kids are your problem, whether you choose to deal with them in schools or another way. They won’t just conveniently disappear.

But it is your problem though ,your child’s educatIon is being impacted by lack of SEN provision. This is all of ours problem

I have not read the full thread but do agree as a secondary teacher, behaviour is worse now than I can remember. I have been in the same school for nearly 2 decades.

We have had a lot of education secretaries in recent years since Gove. How long the current one stays in the role remains to be seen. However we have now actually now got a junior minister who actually holds QTS and has more recent classroom experience than Baroness Smith. We can but hope that they can use their experience as a teacher and working in that sector to help improve services to support families and schools. They seem to be doing good work in their constituency to support their constituents.

I’m hoping the shift from gentle parenting to FAFO parenting will make a difference in a few years.

Reading isn't your strength, huh?

@hungryduck

”But it took years to fight the council for a special place even though it was a complete waste of everyone's time and effort for her to be in mainstream.”

Did you consider private school or home school? Considering you have such a poor opinion of those wanting a free education…

Calm down dear.

No, not interested in campaigning. Why would I? It’s not my problem.

And no need for the sweary rant, which is all assumptions on your part anyway. I don’t recall mentioning my child’s current educational arrangements.

I started in 1976 there wasn't any My daughter in 1996 and she didn't have one either

Was the teacher and kids. .

We had TAs when I was in the Infants (1980-82).
They might have been called a different name but they were there.

Thanks @Fearfulsaints . I won't be following, but I appreciate your input.

Not in the slightest. They haven't been telling people to remove their child, have they?

If you actually wanted to do something about it, you'd campaign for adequate SEN funding. But you don't actually give a shiny shit. You can't be bothered to home school or pay private because it's your child's right to receive a free education. But fuck anyone else, eh!

For the record, my DC with SEN was not in the slightest bit disruptive. She'd sit there silently not having a clue what was going on. She'd play with the y3s at break when she was y6 because she couldn't communicate on a y6 level. But it took years to fight the council for a special place even though it was a complete waste of everyone's time and effort for her to be in mainstream. We paid for private for a while to see if a small class would help. It didn't. And living in the SE we need 2 incomes so homeschooling wasn't an option.

Im not a homeschooling. My son is going to an sen school. I just know lots of homeschooling

Those expecting academic success use tutors online schools and home ed groups to supplement gaps in thier own personal skills.

So you dont personally have to be qualified to achieve this.

But you do t have to. Threes no law

Yes sweetheart, ideally all children should have a suitable education. But I see no sign anything will change for the better anytime soon.

When did TAs first start coming into schools? There weren't any when I was at school and my eldest daughter didn't have them either

Was one teacher and the kids

So what? The point still stands.