To think disruptive behaviour in schools is out of hand?

When ds was in year 6 he took a couple of maths lessons - obviously the teacher was in the room. The teacher said ds was a better mathematician than he'd ever be and there was nothing he could teach him! (This was a middle school and each subject had a 'specialised' teacher.)

Yes exactly the same as DD. Her teachers attitudes were very much 'Well we know she's going to get three Level 6s in her Yr6 SATs anyway so our work here is done.'

Yes, but that's very different from not learning anything in your own class because you are acting as a TA to your own peers rather than being allowed to do work that is appropriate to you.

At our primary, they have a buddying system between older and younger years, where children can volunteer to go and support learning in the reception and KS1 classrooms and ask to represent particular subjects they feel most confident in/passionate about. That is really positive and a good learning experience for the older children because the aim of it is to teach them leadership and it is separate from their own class learning, not meant to take the place of it.

What is different and not acceptable is when teachers don't have the capacity to stretch the more able kids by giving them interesting and challenging work, so just cop out by telling them to go and sit with a child in their own class who doesn't get it and explain it to them.

I used to be asked to explain things to other kids because I was academic and picked things up fast. I hated it because it made me unpopular - the perception of the other kids was that I was a swot and a know-it-all, and it made them feel stupid that someone their own age was being asked to teach them, so they resented having me foisted upon them, and it wasn't like I was a particularly skilled teacher either. What it taught me was to keep my head down, never answer in class if possible, and try to hide being clever because it would make people hate me.

That sounds nice, and very different to being used as the listener for your own peers and being expected to correct/teach them.

Exactly. What’s “the government” supposed to do about it? It’s societal.

When hasn't it been? A friend of mine said he knew he was making progress when a kid said to him 'Fuck off sir'! And that was 20 years ago.

I don't think it's something 'government' can sort out, it's a whole society thing. There need to be clear rules of acceptable behaviour, with penalties for non-compliance - school management need to be on board, teachers need to be on board, unions need to be on board and parents need to be on board.

When I was in primary school it was considered a treat to get to go to the Infants class to listen to the little ones read 😂
I loved doing it.

When I was in primary school the teachers used me as a spare TA, my job was to listen to other kids in my class reading and correct/teach them. I still can't believe it looking back. I was classed as a gifted child and extremely advanced with literacy so they seemed to give up on actually stretching me and just used me instead. This was around the ages of 6-10.

Yeah, my dd has just started year 7 and she and a few of her classmates were basically being used as unpaid, mini TAs in year 5. The teachers were laughing about it at parents evening. We put a stop to it.

To be fair, the head teacher was very apologetic and it did stop.

we live in a shithole and there are huge behaviour issues at the primary school. So children like dd were basically being used to help out the teachers. Absolutely not on.

Same with me! I'm 60 and there were over 40 dc in our class (3 forms per year) and I remember having to help a class mate with his reading and spelling.

Very sad but true. DD is very bright and got three Level 6s in her Yr6 SATs. As far as I can make out she spent most of her Yr5 and Yr6 working as an unpaid TA to those children on the bottom tables in the classroom.

This has ALWAYS been the case sadly.

I remember at school, they promised that the kids with the highest SATs grades would get to go on a special trip. I got the highest. I wasn't invited. When I asked why, it was because they knew and expected I'd do well, so they were going to take kids that had done better than expected instead. Still sticks in my craw years later, the lesson that I learned that day. Be good, behave, study, do well, and your efforts will be taken for granted. Misbehave, or put in a bit of effort after not bothering for ages, and people will fall over themselves with applause and rewards.

My son is fairly bright and I'm conscious that at home we will need to keep encouraging and pushing and praising him for the work he does because at school the brighter kids tend to be ignored while attention is paid to the ones that are struggling. Instead of a balance where they support the ones having a hard time but also continue to support and push the ones doing well.

I respect that many people will disagree but I fundamentally feel that approaches like those used by Michaela are cruel and not as effective as they first appear.

The disruptive kids get attention and time poured into them and are then rewarded when they manage to behave for a relatively short amount of time.
The kids that just get on with it get fuck all.
It pays to be a twat at school.

Imagine being that child who has been told a lot of rubbish about Michaela and you end up really enjoying it and the school helps you get better results than you might have elsewhere.

Imagine being that kid who wanted to go to a nice, normal school and you get forced to go to Michaela, only to be told if you don't like it you can go elsewhere (except you can't really).

The headteacher often points out that they have children who attend who haven’t applied but didn’t get into their school of choice so were given Michaela by the LA.

It's undersubscribed by nearly 100 pupils? For a really popular school?

For those who are interested, here are stats on pupil population at the Michaela School.

Michaela Community School - GOV.UK

Michaela Community School - Compare school and college performance data in England - GOV.UK

We can refer to badly-behaved kids without saying they are 'bad kids'. That their behaviour is bad is clear and undeniable. Bad behaviour can have lots of reasons and those reasons are not all SEND.
Schools must, can and do have things in place to try to help students with SEND and other issues to access the curriculum and be in lessons. And obviously not all students with SEND are at all disruptive. However, the learning of whole classes and cohorts of kids is being constantly disrupted by poor behaviour. Obviously this means the bady-behaved kids aren't learning either, so who exactly is benefiting from this?

TA support in secondary classes has massively reduced. Teachers can't teach the curriculum if they are constantly having to deal with disruption and keep disruptive kids in the room. Aside from removing kids from the classroom, what do people actually suggest should happen? Do people really think we should just accept that hours and hours of learning time is wasted week-in week-out?

There are basically no real consequences for disruptive behaviour which is why it happens. It's as simple as that. When teachers try to enforce any consequences at all, the "mental 'elf" card can be deployed complete with all the institutionalised benefits victim status now confers. Nothing will change until that is dismantled.

In my DH's culture, kids who are testing the limits are sent back to their parents' home country for school. It always works

I work at a state secondary school.
Let me tell you, these statistics can’t be right. There is SO much more chance of lessons being disrupted due to poor behaviour.

@twinkletoesimnot

Yes, stereotypes/labels of ‘bad’ were absolutely put on my child before he’d set foot in the school door. Because he has an EHCP. He is quiet, compliant and making good progress at his own pace. But I’ve had discriminatory language such as school seeing fit to describe him as having a ‘tiny, squeaky voice’ on official reports.

The school wanted him in a specialist placement. There is lots of talk about ‘off rolling’ where decisions are made in the school’s best interests - whereas morally/lawfully it should be about the child’s best interests.

I read this weeks that Farage is on course for an outright majority as next PM. The majority opinion on this thread is a match for Reform education policy.

I see a shift in our society (I think driven by Covid) where we are becoming insular - driven by our wants/needs and pushing out others. I see the St George’s flag flying on lampposts - to represent this ethos. The thing that sets us apart from other animals is our ability to be social, to be civilised. Reform are more about that animalistic trait of ‘survival of the fittest’.
If Reform happens, I have no doubt my son will be discriminated against and segregated out to another place. Special schools are not havens, they are often places where many vulnerable students are placed together with high turn over of staff - or in worst case you have abuse like the school that was closed in the Wirral.

Bulgaria:

In Bulgaria, every citizen has the right to
education without discrimination based on
race, nationality, gender, ethnic or social
origin, religion or social status. Many Bul-
garian children, however, are denied access
to quality education and regularly face such
discrimination.
This represents a breach of one of the
basic human rights of these children,
recognised under the Convention on the
Rights of the Child. The existing education
model of “special schools” for children
with disabilities and learning difficulties, and
children from ethnic minorities, not only
causes stress and psychological damage,
but exacerbates social marginalisation,
eventually increasing the number of un-
employed and those dependent on social
assistance.
Save the Children UK worked in Bulgaria
to ensure that children are able to claim
their right to education without dis-
crimination. Our programme on inclusive
education focused on getting children
currently enrolled in ‘special schools’ into
mainstream schools.