To think disruptive behaviour in schools is out of hand?

Do we expect the government to do something about it, particularly given they have closed the private school doors to many?
I don't think the government have more of a responsibility to do something about behaviour than the tories did because some ex private pupils can't afford private any more. It was just as important before that. The majority of pupils were in state when the tories were in power and they mattered just as much as ex private kids.

Well adding VAT has certainly proven to add to the cost to state! To the tune of well over 16K+ children. That has so far cost the taxpayer over £119million this year alone with no additional money given to schools to cover the cost. The cost is more if any of those children are SEND.
Are you aware that many countries actually offer tax incentives to parents who send their children to independent schools? Because they understand that independent schools do relieve the cost to the taxpayer and means that there are more resources for children in state schools? Because the parents who choose independent schools are still paying their taxes to support state schools.
Just because a policy reminds you of Reform, doesn't mean it's a bad policy! Especially when state schools + SEND is on absolute crisis.

@Lucy5678

Fair enough. It’s more the Reform UK voters who argue in that way.

This issue goes way back to the point where so many schools which were specifically set up and staffed to support children with behavioural issues were closed down.

We certainly aren’t in an economic climate now where taxpayers can fund opening new schools as PP suggested. Inclusion really works brilliantly for some children, but for many it’s been a total disaster.

@twistyizzy

Especially when some of the sentiments here sound like Reform UK education policy:

Hand private schools a tax relief of 20 per cent, with no VAT on fees. If parents can “afford to pay a bit more, we should incentivise them to choose independent schools” as it will “significantly ease pressure on state schools and improve education for all”.

Double the number of pupil referral units so that schools “can function safely”, with “best practice spread across PRUs”. This is pledged under the header “permanent exclusions for violent and disruptive students”.

No you were the one who started throwing out insults to individuals. Criticising a paper/source is fine but you were the one to first throw out the insinuation of the right not being clever enough to understand something.
Then the comment above.

You can't simplify it into "right approves of independent schools and the left doesn't" because that's the most simplified argument ever, its so much more complex than that and people can have a spectrum of views you know. Just because you align more to the left doesn't mean you also can't send your DC to independent schools
You are using an incredibly reductive viewpoint and argument. No-one in real life has such binary views.

I’m probably somewhere on the right politically myself. The inability to think critically about data and statistics or evaluate data sources isn’t a right or left wing issue.

@twistyizzy

Er no. If someone quotes a Times article, it’s fair enough to point out the political leaning of that paper. If you look back at the thread, there was definite - and very strong - mockery of the Guardian. If someone starts getting jeery at my posts, then I will argue back - thanks very much!

It is a debate relating to politics because the right are in favour of private, and left not - hence the VAT hike.

To many people miss-understand the rule that 16-18 years olds in England are meant to be in "Education or Training" and think the leaving age is now 18.
It isn't.
But many 16-18 get told they "have" to be at school so they are there even when they really don't want to be.

Of course they will which will only widen the gap. This is why we said all along that VAT only makes independent schools MORE elitist and deepens the divide.

Without systemic change, all parents who can afford it will choose private schools.

I don't see any great depth in your posts on the subject...

Why are you constantly bringing Left Vs Right into this? It's like you have an agenda and FYI you were the one who started with the insults ie against people who are more to the right than you.
It's impossible to have a discussion with someone who constantly makes chippy remarks about "the right".

There are a few big misunderstandings here. Private schools can refuse or remove pupils. They're not subject to the same rules around exclusion as state schools. Parents are considered customers and vendors can refuse to serve a customer. If you want state to be similar, then you have to give us the power to permanently exclude pupils.

Michaela looks good on paper, however, firstly it's selective so she makes sure she's not letting any 'troublemakers' in. Secondly, she actively recruits from ethnic communities with a really strong work ethic. In other words, it's not representative of the local area or the problems many of its children face. So sure, if you want segregated education that excludes people with low cultural capital (often the poorest white kids) knock yourself out.

Ex-teacher here who saw the decline in behaviour.
You only have to read this forum on a daily basis to see we have a problem. Parents make excuses for their kids behaviour all the time- they don’t set boundaries, they struggle with punishments because “it won’t work with my child”, they blame SEN or ND, they question every act of discipline that schools and teachers use (how many of these have we seen on this forum in the last week since the kids went back!)
Added to this that kids are addicted to phones and social media, which has largely turned their brains into mush.

Everyone wants a good education for their child, but they don’t seem to grasp that that begins at home. Teachers can’t educate children when they are trying to manage large classes with poor behaviour.

I don’t understand the comment about behaviour 16-18 though. Surely the disruptive ones have left by then? Dd2 in at an excellent state 6th form full of pupils from the private schools who go there for 6th form.

The thing is most private schools aren't super strict. Whilst the children still need boundaries they are fundamentally better behaved. This is some combo of wealth, parents and hence students valuing education, smaller classes and the ability to expel the persistently disruptive leading to a different school culture. Also perhaps most importantly the children are invested in the process. They believe that if they work hard they will follow the path of good grades, university, job.

Obviously chaotic state schools with poor behavior are very bad. But these super strict academys have huge downsides as well. They can be very oppressive environments for children. Only I think at the grammar schools does there seem to be good behaviour without this zero tolerance approach.

Spot on piggly. My father and sister teach or did dad long retired. The attitude of the parents has entirely switched. The parents used to be broadly on the side of the school. My father’s biggest stress in his career was other teachers which seems incredible now.

Now parents are immediately defensive / aggressive at the slightest criticism of the child. No “adults working together for sake of child” that has gone.

@Chiseltip

So with exclusion rates at an all time high, we should keep adding more children to that record high rate - or change the way we do things?

We don't have resources to look after disruptive kids. That's reality.

So yes, some people have a life that is an inspiration to others, and some people have a life that is a warning to others.

Sorry, haven’t RTFT, but with this, posted in reference to Michaela, is hugely important:

They don't select other than parents who buy into the ethos

As a teacher in secondary school, I can tell you this is probably the most important factor in managing behaviour and the one thing I have noticed change hugely over my 30 years in the classroom. The vast majority of parents I come into contact with do not support the school and are openly ranging themselves against schools and teachers. It’s how society has changed, the ‘no-one can tell me what to do’ attitude we see all the time on MN, coupled with ‘I support my kids no matter what’ …even if that means ‘supporting’ your kid after they’ve hit a teacher in the face (‘Well, he feels that teacher picks on him, so…’).

It’s tremendously difficult to manage volatile teenage behaviour in these circumstances.

In the Netherlands, I was told that they have a more 3 tier system at secondary level. A more vocational option, a more academic option and third option which is a mixture of the two. And no real stigma about which option you go to.
I don’t know if - historically - our ethos is to be a very results and academic driven country, with the quality of a school determined by high grades or Oxbridge placements.

Which leads a large swathe of children feeling useless because their abilities are not academic - or not purely academic.
Academic achievement is not the only criteria for success?
I think schools need to focus on inclusion, value added and happiness, rather than being results driven.
Some schools have COIN units and I think this needs to become more widespread, so children don’t have to travel and have this option in their local community.

I agree with VAT hike for private, but I do think it’s a shame that some are closing or struggling financially - which is causing staffing issues (this was the root cause of my incident yesterday).

I’m wondering if the LA could financially support placements more into the private system to boost this issue - particularly where a lower class size, outdoor space could help support a child with an EHCP.

But my biggest bugbear is exclusion. We mustn’t exclude children or deprive them of their right to an education - or dehumanise them - or write them off. We must do all we can to support every child in our society - and I think some of the sentiments on this thread are shocking. It is that dismissive, stereotypical and negative attitude towards needy children that is causing our highest ever rates of exclusion.