To think disruptive behaviour in schools is out of hand?

Yes. Keep disruptive children out of school, so that those who want to learn can do so. That IS exactly what I am suggesting.

I wholeheartedly disagree with inclusion because it is never funded properly to enable it to work. It may be on new Ofsted but Labour aren't increasing funding to ensure it is done well.

In order to achieve proper inclusion in mainstream schools you would need to at least double funding per pupil, that isn't going to happen. So what will happen is that a broom cupboard will be opened as a "hub", staffed for 1-2 hours per week by a TA and that will be that.

In my experience those that are unaffected by the VAT increases are the least vocal about it but I am happy to be proven wrong.

Your data selection seems somewhat biased and that is how I arrived at my opinion.

As previously mentioned, if you live in a deprived area, the best thing for you community is for DC to stay in school rather than limiting options for people that haven't had the best start in life. Or move.

@DampSock

The reason I don’t agree with that reformUK policy - is it will lead to a situation where the most affluent children thrive, and the underprivileged are excluded.

To reiterate: I am not a fan of Reform.

But the reality at the moment is that the most affluent children thrive, while the less affluent fall into one of two categories: they either struggle due to learning difficulties and chaotic lives and are completely unsupported in “inclusion” or their education is constantly disturbed and interrupted by the need to manage the first category of children.

Its these children above all who are being failed by the blanket policies of inclusion applied in state schools.

I think your claim that the underprivileged are excluded isn’t quite right. There is very little exclusion by all accounts and children have to show a consistent and long running pattern of behaviour to be excluded.

Meanwhile a whole generation of children, of varying levels of affluence and privilege but who stop short of very extreme behaviour, is being denied a quality education by the dogged insistence on keeping children who should be excluded in the system.

@twistyizzy

I wholeheartedly agree with inclusion. It’s on the new OFSTED reporting card system. My child was nearly excluded before DC had even set foot in school, and to see DC now - it would have been completely detrimental to his well being, DC is learning really well.
I know of another exclusion and the family are desperate and don’t have a school place. The child is settled in every environment I’ve seen him in - except school.

Something definitely does need to change in terms of EHCP’s - it is far too complex, open to misinterpretation and under resourced.

I wholeheartedly agree that one size fits all does NOT work and schools should be adapting to reflect the changing needs in our society.

I'm more worried about Labour's thought process on education ie inclusion above everything, reducing access to EHCPs and limiting parents right to appeal. 1 size fits all does not work.

@Thepeopleversuswork

And what concerns me is that we are normalising that reformUK thought process about children’s education. That is the real danger. It was certainly not the thought process 20 years ago - when exclusion rates were lower, teachers had to provide good differentiated planning, and schools were more accountable for behaviour.

@Thepeopleversuswork

The reason I don’t agree with that reformUK policy - is it will lead to a situation where the most affluent children thrive, and the underprivileged are excluded.

My SEN child was rejected from state initially. Where would he have gone? After a battle, he is in state - happy and thriving.

Under that reform policy, it is too easy to exclude children - and encourages labels of difficult, unteachable - and then children start believe that about themselves. And a child in that negative cycle - what do they then go on to do? Commit crime? And how does that impact society?

You would have to exempt SEND provision from parental top up. Easy to do and completely justifiable, after all it wouldn't be an extra cost to the taxpayer as they are already footing the bill.

The innate weakness of my suggestion is that really excellent SEN provision can cost £100k pa, and there would be screams of outrage if a parental top-up contribution was required.

I definitely consider myself politically left of centre but these policies strike me as fairly sensible. If that’s Reform policy (and for the record I will never vote for Reform) then this speaks to the vacuum of leadership in the current government.

I am not a teacher but I think it’s increasingly clear that the policies of inclusion are failing all pupils.

Yes I 100% support vouchers. That wat home schoolers could also access them. That would be a completely "fair" model and is actually what some countries already do.
The UK (as an entity) sadly just doesn't value education

It's such a difficult situation. Setting seems to help massively if your child is academic.You can have completely opposite experience of the same school to someone with a less academic child. The worst scenario is a well behaved child with limited abilities that ends up in set 6/7 of the average state school.

I think this would be part of the solution, but might suggest it could be refined by allocating every child an education budget to be spent as the parents deem in the best interest of each individual child, set at a national per capita based on average education spend. This "voucher" could be "spent" on any approved educational setting, from elite private (for which the parents would pay the additional cost) to SEN provision.

Alternatively, allow some % of private personal provision for health or education to be offset against income tax in recognition that the state is not paying for those that opt out.

Yep, we didn’t need even more students in state. That was a poor policy which won’t help anyone.

I think there is an element of managing expectations too though. From a developmental perspective, a 4 year old that would sit quietly for 6 hours is a red flag. We are a generation of people pleasers. Maybe schoos needs to move in line with understanding of child development like in other countries, where there are better outcomes for children than there are here.

I don't think OP really wants to discuss this though. I think OP is looking for confirmation that a mediocre private education is better than an education in any state school, because she has been led to believe that all mainstream schools are awful places. And her private education hasn't led to a career where she can comfortably afford the VAT rises.

But also parental engagement with education. If i got any inkling that DD was pratting around at school (let alone being purposely disruptive) would come down on here like a ton of bricks. Education is my hill to die on and doing well is a non-negotiable in our house.
My SIL however regularly takes kids out of school during term time and in fact her middle child missed her first 2 days at college due to being in Spain. She then missed out on that transition and has been on a back foot with friendships and settling in etc. She also hardly ever attends parents evenings or engages with the schools.

Expectations of behaviour in school are created and maintained at home.

And although I could never afford to
privaty educate my children, I agree with the proposal to remove the VAT and give a tax break to those who privately educate their children.

Penalising the well off was just pure envy and I know at least one private school in my area that has closed and number of kids have now come to my kids school increasing the numbers and putting more
pressure on.

Taking those kids out and back into the private sector would mean smaller class
sizes for my kids. Win-win.

What I’m trying to say is that having got rid of the fear factor, nothing has replaced it to instill respect and good behavior.

It’s probably already been said (I’ve not read the entire thread) but having been to school in the 90s I think this is correct.

The problem is, up until the 80s teachers kept order with literal fear and violence (caning was only abolished in UK schools in 1987).

In the 90s we had teachers who were still part of the caning generation who weren’t afraid to stamp their authority.

Now we have a generation of “nice”
and “respectful” teachers who “set an example” of what behavior they would like
to see from children, and “try to
understand” the causes of bad behaviour.

Unfortunately the children walk all
over them because there is no real consequence for misbehaving, being rude, hitting teacher etc.

Thats certainly the case at my DD and DS primary school, which is in a “not rich but not total hellhole poor” area.

And most importantly, you know that if you misbehave at school, your parents will back the teachers 100% and you'll get consequences at home too!

I don't think it's only the fault of parents that the relationship between school and home has broken down though. Policies around things like attendance, uniform and healthy eating, enforced by the government with no understanding of the individual circumstances of each school, have also driven a wedge between teachers and parents.

But how do you expect hard pressed teachers to spend time guiding every pupil who is tempted to mess about?

Parents should guide. In my home that meant setting clear expectations that any messing about would result in consequences at home. It starts with small things. When the teacher says put your pencil down, you put your pencil down. You line up nicely and stop talking. You put your coat on when told to. NT DC should have no problem understanding that if they are minded to ignore the teacher it will be dealt with at home. My DS2 in particular needed to learn those lessons at 4/5/6, but I saw it as my responsibility to drum them into him.

Actually legally the government has an obligation and responsibility for ALL children, no matter what sector they are in. See also home schooled children