To think we need to learn how to debate again

The problem is, as someone else said, you can’t go into a healthy debate when views are not borne out of objective fact, but emotion. One side tends to debate using objective robust evidence, the other leans more heavily towards existing beliefs, fears and stereotypes (although both sides do this to an extent)

You can’t have a debate if, for example, one side thinks asylum seekers come here for the benefits and the cushy lifestyle and they are all rapists, white people will be replaced etc etc etc and the other side believes they are fleeing persecution.

I’ve tried having a conversation on this with a few people and they are so wedded to their own beliefs that are not based in fact that there is no reasoning with them whatsoever and it ends up in a situation where I want to bang my head against a brick wall.

To say the right never get offended about anything is the biggest lie because if it were true then they wouldn’t be punching down on minorities so much to start with.

Nobody wants open borders, we just believe that asylum seekers are human and don’t deserve to be scapegoated. We still believe that the problem needs to be addressed.

I remember learning at some point that behaviour is rooted in opinion, opinion is rooted in values and values are rooted in beliefs, and that real change only comes when you reach the level of belief.
I don't think you do this through debate, as it only tends to happen through the believers own experience showing them they believed incorrectly.
There is an argument that forced change in behaviour can trickle down to change belief, as if we're not allowed to do something after a while it embeds itself as 'wrong' in our belief system. But again, that change is not achieved through debate.

You lost me when you blamed one section of the political spectrum, and outed yourself ad someone who can’t debate.

I agree. You can debate opinion but you can't debate beliefs or values.

If you can’t accept the evidence of facts, data and statistics then you aren’t going to be able to engage in debate. Having seen you on previous threads, it’s very much a you problem and not a left problem.

I'm guessing you didn't grow up in a mining community in the Thatcher years.

I strongly disagree. This has been around forever. People being tribal isn't new.

There were children from miner's families kept away from the children of police families in the 80s because the police were used as Thatcher's private army to break up the strikes. "I'd never date a copper" was my pal at university's line in the sand.

My uncle's mates were all from the Working Men's club at the end of the road. Not a Tory within a mile of it. My second boyfriend said his father had never met a trade unionist before.

I think it’s lack of knowledge mostly. I’m pretty good at debates as don’t tend to get offended easily, however I find it much harder when I have less information than the other person or if their knowledge is greater of the subject and it leaves me to have to research to make sure I actually know my own opinion.

This is really true and a problem every time I’ve tried to discuss the Middle East or trans issues. People just don’t agree on basic truths. I’m interested in why we find it so hard to reach common ground on the facts. Is it education and critical thinking? Or is it more that the nature of how we get information has changed to the extent that we have too many different narratives going on? Perhaps it was easier when it was just the Times vs the Sun instead of literally millions of points of view from TikTok, Twitter etc

It is largely the far Left who seem to dislike reasoned debate.

🤔

Totally agreed until you blamed one side without proof or back up. I’ve found a wide range of people from all political sides to be unable to debate without becoming offended and defensive. I don’t really associate myself to one specific party so I find it very interesting when people argue their point, however often people have absolutely no comeback to a simple why?

This ^

I'll save you the time @childofthe607080s

It won't be.

Naw - I don’t bother with people who have closed minds

this is absolutely not true. I don’t recognise any of what you are saying. People have always disagreed. But as a PP said, today there are lots of people forming opinions on misguided and manipulated information.

It’s hardly a great advert for “reasoned debate “ if you begin with insulting people - everyone but the far left is capable of reasonable debate ? Really? Given how small the far left is that shouldn’t mean we have a problem ? Why would the far left want to talk you you if you have already assumed they won’t ?

Point is, it never mattered. A group of friends could be from any political persuasion. Good or bad people aren't who they vote for. How easy a police officer's job would be if that were the case.
We certainly never heard such ignorant remarks such as "I could never kiss a Tory."

I agree we need to teach better debate skills.

I don’t agree it’s the far left (alone) that are terrible at it. And I’m not far left myself.

They aren’t the ones currently protesting outside hotels and threatening lives and inciting violence.

Politics has become hateful. Of both sides listened we could move towards middle ground and back to the more centrist politics that always worked well previously in the UK and was where the Tory’s once sat and probably why they been the party mostly in power.

Also, I agree that in pop culture, debate has become toxic. Debates published on YouTube are far more often "watch xxx TOTALLY DESTROY stupid lefty/MAGA/Antifa/gammon idiot".

I'd like more "X and Y have a calm discussion about their differing opinions on topic x"

Totally agree with you.

My DD has just returned from sixth form. Today they were TOLD in assembly that all the flags were purely a declaration of racism from the extreme far right activists. It wasn't an opening to a discussion, it was statement.

It is this sort of rhetoric with the shut down of debate that angers people and causes division. Debate and free speech is basic in a civilised society

Wow, this thread is going to generate some good-faith discussion, I'm sure.

Yes, and there is no point in a climate change denier having any kind of "debate" with a climate scientist. It will quickly get farcical.

But two people who share the same understanding of the science behind climate change can have a good debate about whether the UK's net-zero policy is a good policy or not.

Exactly

There's can be no debate had between the vocal maga right and the vocal liberal left in respect of something like January 6th because they fundamentally disagree on the terms.
One side believes it was a false flag by antifa and the other believes it was insurrection.

There's no discussion to be had in that space.

What nonsense. It's always been pretty obvious which way people one knows well vote by their expressed opinions on current affairs. So unless you and your friends discussed only the weather or Marjories geraniums, you'd not have ask to know whether they leaned left or right.
I don't follow your thinking with regards to the politics of one's employer or electrician either. Left wing people are not responsible for the right wing views of their boss or the person who rewires their kitchen.