Children having their own seat on a packed train.

In your scenario, I would have just said to my child, “Oh, that was a nice thing to do”, and then they can go off feeling like they did a nice thing. It feels good to do nice things. Now he probably feels like a mug, and will be wary of anyone else trying to make a mug out of him, rather than looking for more opportunities to do a nice thing.

Would you say that to an elderly person with a free pass if they wanted a seat?

”Demanded” no, because lack of manners always rubs me up the wrong way. If they asked for my seat, I’d get up but I was raised that way. Someone asked my mum to get out of a priority seat so that they could sit down and as my mum was getting up, the person started muttering about how the seats were meant for the elderly. My mum was knocking on eighty,lol, she just didn’t look it… or feel it thankfully. I can’t believe she got up, bless her.

No, I wouldn’t ask for an explanation, I’d just get up. Why they need a seat is none of my business. It’s enough that a stranger has asked for my help and I am able to give it. I do also believe, though, that what goes around comes around and many a time I’ve been helped by strangers in so many ways… In so many different countries. What you give out comes back to you and I prefer to live in a world where I treat people how I’d like to be treated. If I’m not well enough to stand up, that’s a different matter but if it cost me nothing to be kind, then why not be?

Pay for the 2nd child then

I think a lot of people who automatically say this are primarily thinking of short journeys. I regularly went away with my kids, a friend and her kids when they were all pretty small. When we had toddlers plus babies we’d book a table for 4, when it was 4 pre schoolers we used to book a table of 4 plus 2 seats. We got tickets for everyone specifically to be able to book seats. Generally we were travelling for 2-3 hours. Booking seats meant it was very easy to entertain the kids with a bit of colouring, a small jigsaw, Lego etc, to sort them out snacks and generally to ensure they were settled and quiet and not being a hassle to anyone. Squishing everyone into 4 seats around the table would have just about been possible but it would have been uncomfortable and less easy to keep them
all quiet and occupied. I booked so we had a set up that would work well for our journey.
Would you expect slim adults to nudge up and sit in with 3 people in a row for 2 in discomfort to make room for an extra person to sit? If not then why do you think parents & their children are ill mannered not to do it?

Sitting on the floor is problematic when the train is absolutely packed and people trying to get on are screaming "move down" (as from the outside they can't see there are children sat in the aisle!!

No one would get anywhere. We are a vastly overpopulated nation with infrastructure that has a maximum capacity. most lines are running at peak capacity . They tried to increase a bit of capacity with Hs2 and that failed and realistically we can’t just go around building more train tracks.

so either only the amount of seats available can travel at great cost to the economy or we accept we get treated like cattle?

the alternative is gradual population reduction to an amount which fits our infrastructure but people bleat on about pensions when that is suggested so I’m baffled what is the solution!

They’d have probably sat on someone else’s lap. I’ve had that help back in the seventies. Older women who’d had children would offer to help. And of course we folded our buggies, we wouldn’t have got on the bus otherwise.

I’ve certainly done my stint of standing or going upstairs on buses. We nearly all did. Where has the courtesy and consideration gone? What’s changed? I also do not believe every younger person I see in the accessible/priority seats has a mobility issue. Not all disabilities mean someone can’t walk or stand. When someone who is obviously frail has to stand and a young person carrying football kit is sitting, it makes me wonder how they’ve been brought up. My middle aged DC wouldn’t behave like that.

I’m a long way past retirement age, downhill from 75, waiting for a knee replacement, and standing is difficult. I’m very obviously old and I have a disabled rail pass. If I visit family by train, it isn't always possible to book a seat. Last time I had to ask a young man, in a very crowded train, to please move his bag so I could sit. He did it grudgingly. I was just amazed (and grateful) that no one else had asked for the seat. I’m getting more reluctant to risk the journey now, because standing for an hour on a moving train would be tough.

Am I the only one who finds it sad that most of this discussion is about entitlement, rather than how a group of people can find a solution that maximises the benefit and minimises the discomfort for as many of them as possible?

To be fair though, it also sounds like children are expected to hold a placard detailing any reasons why they may not be able to stand and/or sit on laps too.

Sometimes people saying no, my child can't give up their seat or sit on my lap have a good reason too.

OP doesn't indicate that she knows that the child doesn't have a purchased ticket.

I think a young child should sit on their parent's lap but apparently that's totes unreasonable these days.

No I wouldn’t ask. I’d hope they would put the child on their lap as I would if the train was busy. Although possibly not if I were to be on the train for a while.

Why don't manners respect and kindness extend TO children?

Children a full members of society, and as such your responsibility extends to them as well. I am not sure why or from where you get the idea that people who choose to have children should put up with being uncomfortable to make you comfortable. Why? Because you are more of a member of society than they are? That parents are somehow lesser and should be punished for having children? Some people will take their children to their laps if they feel inclined to, I probably would. But I wouldn't give into someone who feels like a superior member of society than a child, or a parent with a child.

Children under 5 have free tickets on trains specficially because they’re supposed to be sitting on their parents’ laps. If a child needs a seat then you do need to pay either full price or for an older child’s ticket. You should have reported it to the train manager & they would have given the option to the parent to purchase a ticket.

This, my daughter I'd put on my lap, my son who has ASD and ADHD is leave alone because you wouldn't want to sit directly next to a child having a screaming kicking meltdown.

Wow, the mind boggles! Well done for staying put.

I challenge those who think it is safe for a three year old to stand on a train, to sit cross-legged on the floor of the aisle of a packed commuter train as people push by going up and down the train with luggage and drinks. See how vulnerable you feel. And you are considerable stronger than they are, treated with more respect as an adult and as you will be sitting, considerably more stable.

That’s exactly where the line’s drawn… those who think that we should have respect for our elders and those that do not. The former being of a, largely, bygone era and the latter clearly demonstrating why we live in a society where being inconsiderate, self-centred, thoughtless and entitled is very much the norm. Every man for himself and all that. Oh joy!

Really, given the outrageous cost of train tickets, train operators should not oversell seats. Everyone who has paid should have a seat. (The under 5 still wouldn’t have a seat but the op and every other adult would) More services should run at peak times and on popular lines.

Im not sure why we would rather bend over backwards to inconvenience ourselves and others when the answer is to tell train companies that enough is enough.

I wouldn't ask, no. However I do think the parent should take it upon themselves to realise that their toddler doesn't need a seat when a lap is a valid alternative and it would be good manners to offer the seat to a standing adult.

So if someone demanded your seat with no further explanation, you’d stand up with no hesitation?

I have a hidden disability myself, so I’m not unsympathetic, but I think the person needing a seat at least needs to explain they need it because they are disabled / pregnant / whatever else is not obvious from looking at them, before they expect someone to relinquish their seat.

It isn’t a lack of manners!

if practical I would have out my children my lap absolutely but if I knew it would cause a tantrum or they would be especially wriggly and disturb others I would have taken the view that it was politer to everyone else that he was quiet and calm in the seat. Chances are I would stand and let them have the seat and I’d offer my seat to someone else but not sure why I would be less deserving of the seat than another able bodied adult but I would do out of politeness.

I had 2 under 3 at one point and there was no way I could have had both my lap at the same time for more than couple of minutes whilst also trying to keep my bag in hand as well.

its a judgement call but it certainly isn’t safe for a 3 year old to be standing in a packed train so they should have a seat ahead of an able bodied adult. That should be a given.

As I clearly stated - you paid for a ticket. So no, I’m not selfish. Selfish would be the idiots who think they’re entitled to something that I have paid for, and got.