Freedom of speech isn't tolerated by some

Lol OP's agenda didn't age well now we know who the killer is 😂

In the same way that 9/11 inflamed the situation and continues to this day.

I think that the ramping up of the Christian Nationalism is also extremely worrying. The rallying cries for redemption by joining a church, fighting the "good fight" etc.

I have recommended a documentary before called " Praying for Armageddon" on YouTube which demonstrates that people with fundamentalist views are seeded throughout government in the US. Some of them are extremely influential and focused on seeing the end times, as "described" in the Bible, through to its end, to facilitate the second coming. This event is a catalyst for more open dissemination of these goals. "Spiritual warfare" has been referenced.

I understand that when it seems mankind is in chaos, it's tempting to invoke a higher power, but some of the actions of these particular "Christians" are at absolute odds with generally understood Christian principles.

It's another layer of concern that deeply worries me.

Yes, I fear that this will be Trump's Reichstag fire moment. Used as an excuse for a crackdown on civil liberties and to imprison political opponents on trumped-up (no pun intended) charges.

@WhereIsMyJumper and @TinyIsMyNewt I am on the left and I agree with both of you that it is online polarisation that is so very dangerous.

I do however have very serious concerns about democracy in the US. My DS is a US citizen, and this time last year he was seriously contemplating moving over there to be with his then partner. He is gay and disabled. I am so very, very glad that he decided against it and that he and his partner have decided to step down to friends. The US is not safe for people like him, and that is sad.

The rule of law matters. The current US government does not respect the rule of law. Condemning that is not a partisan thing.

I'm on that other thread with you and agree by the way. It feels like we're on quite a descent, and I fear more riots and more violence and more polarisation. It is quite clear that Trump is deliberately whipping this up, and that Kirk's murder will be used to inflame things further.

Hi 👋
You may be on the left but by the way you write, you certainly aren’t an extremist.

It is true that governments themselves haven’t swung to the far left, I agree. I also agree with your statement about democracy.

I was referring to public opinion. Sometimes it feels to me like it has become too extreme but as I said, I’m hoping that’s more down to people who are closer to the centre not shouting as loud. Maybe I need to spend less time on the internet but everything just seems so polarised at the moment with most people being more interested in ‘winning’ and defending their side than really listening to the other side (your post is an excellent example of not doing that by the way - so thank you)

You make a good point by comparing left wing vs right wing violence to male vs female violence. I haven’t looked up stats but I will believe you when you say it is much more a right wing problem. But even having said that, it feels like everyone of us can at least try to embody rational and logical debate (as you are doing here) and stop being so tribal and emotional about it all. I do find it depressing. I was on another CK thread last night and it felt like it was starting to move in the right way but I went back this morning and it had descended in to the usual cesspit.

Im not sure I even know what I am trying to say. I think I just wish that everyone, left or right, would try and keep more of an open mind and listen to each other and remember we are all human beings.

Charlie Kirk wouldn't care about the people who laugh or say extreme things about him, or try to say what he believed was hateful or wrong. He wouldn't want their 'empathy' anyways.

He was ultimately putting forward a total position of what the ideal world would look like - and so if you pick apart different bits of it, it can seem shocking or wrong to you. But for many people he offered something to aim for - MANY men get a sense of purpose out of being the provider and protector. To teach them to work hard and do that gives them hope and purpose and strength. MANY women want to be able to be at home with their children, to love and nurture them, teaching them that that's good can rid them of societal pressures that scorn them for doing so. His wife also studied and had a career as well. I say this as someone who has not followed this path and works just as much as my partner.
He was anti-abortion. But that's because he was evangelical Christian. The Logos is Reason - if you believe life starts at conception and is a gift from God/ in God's hands, you cannot say it is ok in this situation but not that. Open debate about abortion is good - we should think deeply. It is a life. I say that as someone who's had one.
He believed that marriage should be between a man and woman. But he wasn't 'anti-gay', he thought gay people should be welcomed too. He has many gay supporters, e.g. Douglas Murray.
He was pre-guns for protection. I don't like guns, I'm not American and I don't understand the debate here fully. Yes his death can be seen as 'ironic' for this, but its also ironic for many other reasons. Mostly that liberalism should fundamentally be about accepting views different to your own, but clearly, based on comments we see here and elsewhere most 'liberal' people can no longer do that.

This aged well.

Yep.

I'll try and check my biases, but - to be upfront - I'm on the left.

Although your posts sound reasonable (and are, in parts), I don't think I agree them in their entirety.

In a US context, I don't think there really has been much of a swing to the left at any stage. Looking at the 2000s, we had George W. Bush (traditional right wing conservative), Barack Obama (a centrist Democrat), Trump (radical right wing populist), Biden (centrist Democrat), Trump again (more radicalized than the first time).

While I hate a lot of Trumpian politics - if he wins and election, then he gets to set and carry out his agenda - that's how a democracy should work. What makes Trump, and those around him terrifying is that they do not respect the democratic process. He and his supporters (including Charlie Kirk) embraced election denialism and tried to overthrow the 2020 election results. Democracy held - barely - as certain key persons in his first administration put democracy above winning. This time, all of those democracy-safeguarders have been sidelined, and we only have the election deniers left.

Election denialism seems to have become mainstream on the Republican side, and isn't an fringe position. I would, sadly, be very surprised if we see free and fair elections in the US again in the foreseeable future. Denying democracy is likely the most extreme position you can take in a democracy!

In the UK, there was Blair and Brown's Labour (a very centrist Lab government), a string of Conservatives (some moderate, some further to the right, no extremists of the MAGA sort) and now a very centrist Labour government.

The only leftward-swing has been specific to the transgender issue. Certainly, there's a fair amount of hostility at a grass roots level, but I do think it worth bearing in mind that, at a government policy level in the UK, it hasn't really developed in a partisan manner.

And, as I've mentioned a few times, political violence (particularly killings) in the US is almost always an extreme-right issue. It should still be condemned on those rare occasions where the extreme left engage in it, but I don't think they should be equivocated, given the massive disparity in frequency. E.g., I think most people would accept that male violence is a problem, and that pointing to the fact that sometimes women also commit violence is a lame defence, given the disparity in rates. The Right/Left split in politically motivated murders (around 95% to 5%) is actually more pronounced than the Male/Female split for violence and murders.

Things arent as severe in the UK, and I acknowledge that there are many, many inflammatory, uncompromising dickheads on social media, on the left and right. In the US, though, the problem is very much right wing extremism, which Kirk indulged in, and that should be recognized (although I do agree, that doesnt necessarily mean talking in absolutes).

Yes - so he says he prefers the word sympathy.

Reply to “Where’sMyJumper” - exact quote below
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/fact-check-charlie-kirk-once-001900786.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAM-DR6wX1XRb3Q0aFU1k8ojFara-536FBvJJkB6PSk43ZNG1VlCWFzFdKrWars_xTWbl2_NW79fwGIg0k6aL9Zx6HkHprV6uQ3E-YwWIQwVMAGsox_QFtvxVrELl0RcKN0EkvlLzHmLBxXwcnthAkNncfI5yd3fopjsaHPt2NJex

Oh completely, it's the about turn from those who were happy to proclaim this a trans assassin to start calling for patience and advocating for people not to use the murder to score political points or push their agenda that's incredible to see.

anything but accept he’s a white MAGA donating pro gun Christian.

There's very little confirmed information about the shooter right now. The MAGA donation looks like it's from a different Tyler Robinson who was 34yrs in 2020. We don't know the shooter's full motives or beliefs. He's from a Mormon family (most Christians would say that's not Christian, though Mormons disagree).

If you want to criticise people for jumping to conclusions and filling in the gaps with their own preferred profile, you shouldn't really do the same thing.

(I don't have any 'preferred' group for this to be. It's not a win either way).

What’s a HBC?

The Independent says he was politically unaffiliated and became more full of hate re Kirk over some months

It's heartening to see such a sensible & humane post.

Here is another example of someone taking the empathy quote out of context.
He said he preferred the word sympathy as the word empathy implies you know how the other person feels and nobody can know exactly how someone else feels.

It’s madness and it’s all to protect extreme ends of a spectrum when those posters likely sit around the centre of the spectrum themselves. That makes no sense to me. It’s very tribal.

After what has happened to CK, I have today made a promise to myself that I will stop referring to either the left or the right as one homogeneous mass and just say that I disagree with extremism in any form.

Thank you.

To add to my post, I would say that Trump's assasin Crooks is neither right nor left as he had ties to both. Same for people calling Mangione left when really he was a bit of both.

He said empathy was a made up word, well I have empathy for his wife, children and family, no person should die like this - even though his beliefs were anathema to me.
He said some deaths were inevitable with the right to bear arms, so I wonder how the parents of Sandy Hook, Uvalde and all the others feel, I certainly have empathy and sorrow with them.
He will be made a martyr by the right wing and I wonder where were the flags at half mast for the two Democrat Senators gunned down recently and the sympathy for Nancy Pelosi’s husband’s dreadful injuries.
He DID do stuff, influencing people, particularly young, white men into his beliefs.
I am sorry a young man died as he did, but I do not mourn him.

Exactly, thank you! People on this thread acting like the right has no vile murderers, only the left. Others defending the assassination of a father of 2 toddlers. All vile.

I just really wish more people on the extreme ends of the left AND right would move towards the centre and try and find some common ground.

I heard someone say once that culture used to swing like a pendulum. It now swings like a wrecking ball. Sometimes it feels like nobody is in the centre politically anymore but then I try and convince myself perhaps they should don’t shout as loud as either side. Neither side like the centre, either.

Agree.

Right now, several HBCs are under lockdown due to reactions to his murder when HBCs have nothing to do with it. I highly doubt those colleges and universities are making it up.

I do recall when the floods happened in Texas, they were trying to blame a Black fire chief for not going to help when the Texan city he was in was hours apart and anyone with google maps could look it up and see that for themselves but it doesn’t matter to some.

They did the same with the California wildfires, blaming minority fire chiefs for how bad it got and ignoring what actual weather experts were saying.