To think that your marriage will be as sexist as the man you marry?

But surely the

Men frequently make an effort to present themselves in a better way before you love them and get married.

If all the crap ones were up front about their true nature from the first date far fewer women would marry them.

Can you imagine what honest online dating profiles would look like?

”I am a lazy slob and would like a pseudo mum who I can shag after you make my dinner, clean the house and run all the life admin”

Nobody is going to swipe on that.

My issue is the mental load. Which isn’t really a sexist thing. He does all the washing and cooking. I mow the lawn and do bins. We aren’t living in a traditional roles family. But I carry the whole of the mental load for the children

According to mumsnet standards, a good man earns very well, but has time to deal with the children and pull his weight with the housework without being controlling. He is empathetic, funny, attractive, good in bed and never does or says anything embarrassing. He never so much as glances at porn and cooks enthusiastically but not performatively. He also clears up the kitchen as he goes. He is basically a 50’s house wife who also holds down a high paid job. I think men would also love the same kind of qualities in a wife. Humans just aren’t like that though. They are all flawed.

I my experience everything was fine until kids then it’s who earns more and who has the most family friendly employer that kicks in and becomes normalised. I think stress reveals how genuinely equal things are emotionally but equally there’s a cold logic to what is happening structurally in society. And society and the workplace are not equal IME.

Absolutely this.

A lot of men wear a progressive disguise when they think it costs them nothing (because they know most women are put off by obvious sexism).

It’s very easy to call yourself a feminist when you and your wife are not encumbered by childcare responsibilities, have lots of disposable cash and free time and sex.

Its a very different story when they have pressure at work and suddenly are asked to do pickups and drop offs.

2 things...

children change the dynamic of a relationship and the natural work. I

physical build as plays a part of it… this is also demonstrated in our working society and stereotypes

I didn’t realise as dh and I were very much equal partners in every other way. But I ran a childcare business from home so a lot of the day to day house tasks fell to me. I had dd from previous marriage so a lot of the parenting fell to me. But dh would cook at a weekend and chip in with laundry/hoover etc so I never noticed. Then I had another dc, mat leave and part time work etc. It was when I got a full time job out of the house that I realised dh just didn’t want to do those jobs and my wfh was an excuse. We battled/I accepted it for years and the only thing that worked was matching his energy. Now in my forties I’ve stopped doing all the washing/hoovering etc. I do my share and if it doesn’t get done it doesn’t get done. But dh wants it doing so he will say things like “we need to do a wash “ and I will agree “we” do. Then when nothing happens he will put the wash on.

Yep, my cousin was down as contact three for ours, she would be called before any of our childrens actual parents!

Me too, so he found an employer that supported flexible working and he has worked part time and flexi ever since.

Fathers play an incredible role in shaping their daughters’ expectations. My gf was a wonderful, wise and empathetic man who emphatically supported my dm and her dsis as “women’s libbers” in the 1970s. And my df took a hand in every part of the household.
I think I was enormously privileged for growing up with those role models.

As a peri menopausal woman now I am learning how incredibly powerful hormones are at blinding us to what should be obvious. They cast a golden glow over behaviours that should be abhorrent, or at least off putting. It’s a clever biological quirk that keeps the human race going.

DH is a good one, but there have still been little things that, in the absence of an oestrogen fog, seem considerably less adorable now. But my early role models embedded instincts to swerve other unsuitable men.

I don’t disagree you op that who you marry determines so much, but it’s very important to recognise that much of our good luck reflects privilege more than inherent superiority.

No, it doesn't.

Tell me one thing you can't do that a man can?

It’s surprising how much everyday sexist stereotyping goes on unconsciously, every day.

DH filled in the emergency contact form for DD’s nursery with both our details but his first, followed by mine.

In the 3 years DD attended the nursery, they never, ever, contacted DH, when something was needed. They called me every single time, because childcare is something a woman does, obviously.

Actually, I think the most significant factor is how assertive the woman is, and the second is how much money she earns in comparison to her other half.

Low self worth as a result of an abusive childhood - something I have great sympathy for - is not a permanent feature of life that can’t be changed. It’s up to individuals , as adults, to take control of their lives and find ways to heal, develop, etc. You can’t go through life blaming your childhood or ‘society’ for your bad choices. This goes for men and women.

Women don't end up with low self esteem and a lack of self respect because unlike the superior women they forgot to pick it up with the weekly shop. Believing you don't deserve good treatment is a result of a complex set of experiences and messages that usually go back to childhood, and get reinforced by environment and peers. Society if you will.

You end up in the relationship you think you deserve. If you have low self worth you’re more likely to tolerate some of the diabolical behaviour we read about on MN. If you have self respect, see yourself as an autonomous individual who directs their own life, then you’re more likely to end up in a respectful, equal relationship and also more likely to walk away if things turn toxic, for whatever reason.

I don’t think blaming ‘society’ for poor personal choices does women any favours - it’s patronising and disempowering.

I'm mid 20s and date men from 24-33 and I'm specifically clear in asking what type of family they envision when they have kids who does what? 9/10 most men I've encountered will say they believe they are the provider and women should do the 'home stuff'. It's important to ask these questions

I totally agree with you op. I never quite understand women with multiple children moaning that they’ve ended up as domestic drudges while their husbands peacock through careers, hobbies and life. You married and enabled it!!! Women need to be assured of values and attitudes before they put a ring on it (or whatever people do to formally shack up these days).

That's an interesting point.
Women are often the bearers and communicators of the culture.
Isn't it largely women who perpetuate FGM.

I married a man who believed in equal but his employer turned down his flexible working request.

Yep my friend did all that. Her husband agreed.

And reneged on everything he agreed to so she left him.

Come on!

Sexism disproportionately affects women negatively.

Not if you talk it through in detail in advance. I was very clear that no way would I be stepping back at work once I’d had DS, and that DH was going to have to find ways to make his job far more child-friendly, or change jobs.