To think that your marriage will be as sexist as the man you marry?

I think its interesting to look at why men in certain sectors haven't been forced to let go of sexist attitudes while other men have. Which I think tends to be about the relative lack of power of the women they marry. Your examples, the traditional WC manual worker and the high earning city worker, both tend to have relationships where they hold disproportionate power through higher earnings and the perception their occupation is harder, leaving no time for domestic contribution.
The WC man if he marries within his class will out earn his WC wife. They are less likely to benefit from her continuing in her job after children. His occupation will hold higher status than hers. His work will be seen as physically demanding, requiring that he rest. Hers will be considered lighter. Much also applies to the high earner.
Which brings us back to the usual answer. The solution doesn't lie in hoping men stop being sexist, or keeping our fingers crossed ours won't be that bad, but in removing the underlying inequality that makes it possible for them to be sexist and giving women the tools to manage without them if they are.

I agree. The narrative that these sexist dynamics only show themselves when people become parents is interesting to me as a child-free woman because they reflect all the reasons I didn't want children in the first place. I didn't want a life that involved extra grunt work and responsibilities, even if I had a partner who shared half of them. I think I always subconsciously felt that the best way of freeing myself from sexism in society was to not play the marriage-and-motherhood game in the first place.

Also, don't underestimate the power of being a chaotic, messy party girl. I didn't realise this at the time but no man I have ever met could have possibly been under the illusion that I would bear any domestic burden on their behalf at all.

I found this experience very interesting.

My mum wasn't quite as extreme as this but she practically bullied me to learn to cook because no man would want me if i couldn't. I also went to university and my mum was very keen for me to find my husband. I did get a boyfriend in my final year, we were together 4 years but i ended it due to his gambling addiction.

She then proceeded to complain about all the years wasted in my prime on a man i didn't marry🤦 and how my best years are now over. (I was 24!!!)

Anyway, not long after i met my husband, 11 years on we have a daughter. Everything genuinely is 50:50 and we work on both our strengths.

When I go for my hobby night on a Tuesday i get agro from my mum that I'm leaving him all alone. She never complains to him about his Monday hobby night though where I'm left 'alone'. Don't get me started on the long weekend trips i go on with my friends or even just lunch out at the weekend (he of course is allowed to do these things no questions asked).

I think what i find...typical maybe is that she was never like this to my brother. He didn't find a wife at uni, (less urgency for men apparently), his dating is never successful because with him living at home and having every chore done for him, i feel it sort of drips into other elements of daily life and women want more now as mentally speaking he never surpassed teenage boy stage of maturity and independence.

He also comes out with daft comments like 'English girls are not like they used to be, they go out and party'. He would like a house wife but doesn't have the salary to support one so she'd have to be responsible for the home and income long term.

It does drive me mad because as a direct consequence of my brother still needing help being fed, clothed etc there is no time really for my parents to help me with my child even in emergencies where i have zero childcare back up options.

I have my husband though and he is my rock.

Yes. DH used to work in PL football, and, annoyingly, probably did more to advance certain feminist causes than I ever have with all my campaigning, simply by getting up in overrunning meetings and saying ‘We’ll have to take this up tomorrow — I need to go and pick up my son.’ Virtually everyone else at his level was male and had children with a SAHM. (And he got stick for it, both ‘ribbing’ from colleagues and in a review.)

Oh yes this is another thing I'm like a stuck record about on dating threads.

Female friends! A man with plenty of platonic female friends, especially ones he's really close to, will have had a lot of unthinking sexism knocked out of him. Green flag all the way.

(I've found that some of the men who really walk the walk when it comes to equality were the ones raised in households which were traditional to the point of toxic - domineering fathers, downtrodden mothers - and as adults they make a conscious effort to be the exact opposite of that.)

This is just my personal experience, but as a child free woman who has been probed a few times about why I dont have kids, I was honestly a bit horrified to discover how little thinking/talking/planning people do before deciding to try and conceive about the detail of parenting and relationships before committing to such a massive responsibility. People might have chats about how the childcare is going to work, and little things like 'we'd try and keep them off screens' but I have had so many people go 'you're overthinking it' or 'well thats just how it is because you do maternity leave' when I've asked if they discussed how they were going to make sure that things didn't end up with mum doing everything before trying for kids! Finding out the accidental pregnancy rate is at 45% made a lot of things make sense for me...

@5128gap

How far an individual man gives it up will depend to some extent on what he has to lose (career opportunity, free time, autonomy) balanced against what he has to gain, and this will be different for the child free young man a woman believes is not sexist, from the husband she has in a decades time.

Very true. I think also peer environment plays possibly a more important role than upbringing. A man from a very traditional family who is surrounded by progressive peers (and, critically, strong women) is much more likely to adapt to this to fit in and a lot of this will come to seem normal.

Which is one reason why it's prudent to avoid dating men involved in stereotypically "macho" industries (I'm thinking of builders/men working in certain parts of the financial markets). There will be some who buck the trend but the peer pressure will be fairly intense.

It's more complex than that. If you continue to have no kids then it's fairly straightforward. However people often revert back to how their parents parented - which most often reflects traditional gender roles - when their kids are born. A lot of parenting is instinctive and the default is usually how you were raised yourself. So it's perfectly possible to marry a man who does his fair share of the housework, who then refuses to lift a finger with chores or children after a baby because that's what his expectations of a mother are

I think there's certainly truth in what you say but it's also not as simple as that. Biology and societal norms provide a framework for the man to be the provider/leader and the woman to be the nurturer/server. If the couple (but particularly the woman) do not make conscious and persistent efforts for an equal set up it is so easy for those norms to prevail.

I took short maternity leaves and returned FT because I felt strongly that I didn't want a secondary/support role in our marriage. But it's been such a battle and the majority of child related stuff has fallen to me despite my efforts to insist it should be equal. Other stuff (laundry etc) I do what another poster did and 'match the energy' so H notices and picks up his share but it didn't work with the kids stuff. For a while he was in charge of school admin and we ended up with school trips missed, school dinners not booked. I picked this stuff up again because I wont let my kids miss out to make a point. As a result H does more laundry and cooking to balance things out. And yet I get told by others that I'm 'lucky' he does so much. No one tells him he's lucky for all I do nor that he benefits from me being the main breadwinner. (Most people probably just assume he earns more as he's the man!)

There's just so much innate sexism everywhere. I research, book and pay for our holidays but when we check in l, lo and behold, they have made H the lead passenger. When we married I added him to the title of a flat I had solely owned for 7 years. The Land Registry put his name before mine! If you mention this sort of stuff to a man they will claim they never notice it. That's true privilege - you are so used to it that you don't even notice it any more.

And whilst I rail against it from time to time, sometimes I'm just so fed up with being angry that I let it go and accept it. Not simple at all.

@Neemie

Dogs don’t earn, they smell, they poo, they eat, they don’t do house work, they can’t be left alone, they bark, the have bad habits but people still get them despite the obvious drawbacks.

Women don't marry and bear children with dogs, though: they are never going to become legally bound to a dog. Dogs don't father lots of (human) children then refuse to support them or participate in their upkeep. Apart from a few very aggressive breeds, dogs are highly unlikely to kill you or injure you because you haven't done the housework properly. A dog won't force you to give up work because their job is "more important" and spend most of their free time out on the lash with people at work or from the golf club. They don't drink alcohol or take drugs and aren't going to leave you for another woman. A dog is never going to verbally abuse or "neg" a woman and systematically worry away at her self-esteem.

People aren’t always practical. They don’t want to be lonely and they also want children.They want to love and be loved.

Of course: but anyone who believes "love and being loved" should always over-ride self protection is an idiot. If you think this is enough you have no business going into a marriage and having children.

It does, but given we're only three generations away from almost every man being brought up in a traditional set up, and living in a society that reinforced the messages in every area, it shows that despite upbringing men (as a collective) do behave in accordance with the circumstances in front of them, and the norms of society, despite role modelling in their families. Otherwise 2020s men would be indistinguishable from their 1950s grandfathers.
Sexism is in men's interests, and they (as a group) are having it prised from them little by little, rather than happily giving it up. How far an individual man gives it up will depend to some extent on what he has to lose (career opportunity, free time, autonomy) balanced against what he has to gain, and this will be different for the child free young man a woman believes is not sexist, from the husband she has in a decades time.

Dogs don’t earn, they smell, they poo, they eat, they don’t do house work, they can’t be left alone, they bark, the have bad habits but people still get them despite the obvious drawbacks.

People aren’t always practical. They don’t want to be lonely and they also want children.They want to love and be loved.

You really have no way to know, I had a marriage that was authentically equalitarian, we both shared housechores 50/50, we both were equally good and proactive at making money, DIY, housechores, etc. We were friends, partners, team players. We enjoyed our time together but also had our own hobbies and interests for the many years we were married before DS came into the equation.

If somebody had told me that he was going to be such a shit parent and husband after DS was born I would have never believed them! Yet, DS arrived and suddenly it was my child, my chores, my stupid interests and my job was no longer as important as his… so we split, much to the surprise of all friends and family who saw us as the “ideal couple”.

He has refused seeing his son for more than a decade, didn’t pay the minimum child maintenance despite being a very high earner. Do I think all men are shite? Not at all, but I resent women blaming other women for their husbands’ failings.

I have lost count of how many times I have seen 'my male partner wants me to be a sahm' or words to that effect?

Have women lost the ability to speak ans think for themselves? Is womans only role in life caring for children yet womwn hide behind this till they are then expected to look after grandkids

I do agree with this but I think a man who has been raised in a very “traditional” family environment is more likely to default to this in a family setup than one raised in a more progressive one.

A man whose mother was wholly focused on supporting and facilitating the lives of her husband and children is likely to have different expectations of his own partner than one whose mother worked outside the home.

Thats not to say men from traditional backgrounds can’t override this and build their own families in a different way.

But the “hard-wiring” in a traditional family predisposes men to a certain set of expectations.

This is really important.

I didn't want children so I didn't ask about families specifically, but I always talked about feminism, equality and gender roles with the men I dated. Any sign that they held any views along the lines of "men should be/do this, women should be/do that" and they were ditched.

I'm like a stuck record on dating threads but it can't be said enough: the trouble is that a lot of women fetishise traditional masculine roles when dating. They want "providers" and "protectors" - what that means is men who get their self-worth and validate themselves through their ability to earn money and through their physical strength - not from sharing the domestic load, or being gentle and non-aggressive.

You don't really get to cherry-pick traditional gender roles when someone's core identity is based on them. They come as a package. And that package, down the line, means both husband and wife "knowing their place".

Another popular sexist remark… it is the woman that made a bad choice? You don’t know how sexist a man will be until you have gone through maternity leave.

And in any case why is the woman fault? People change, relationships change. Nothing to do with choosing well, you simply don’t have a crystal ball when it comes to relationships.

There are also plenty of threads started on MN about a 'new boyfriend' or a 'new partner' where they live separately and there are children are involved, who is already showing signs of being a prick.

They ask, "Isn't this just what men are like?"

Some will reply that, yes, that's just what men are like. All of them. Every single one.

There are those who reply that, no, this is not what all men are like. This one's a dickhead, throw him back

Others will advise to proceed with caution.

They invariably agree that, yes, they will proceed with caution. Or ask what if they never meet anyone else? Or say they're desperate for a family.

Those women are going into that relationship with their eyes wide open. They are choosing that.

Agree 100%

To be fair ny DH did seek out a more flexible job, but it took him several years. He didnt get through interviews etc.

He was then made redundant and had to take any job for financial reasons, and then look for something more flexible again.

The point is both men and women might have intention to do x y z but external forces have an impact on how quickly they can achieve it. Its not just down to how sexist the man is. We dont live in a vacuum.

Exactly. Absolutely DH is flawed, as am I, but it’s not ‘any port in a storm’ — he needs to make my life much better for there to be any point to being in a relationship with him. And yes, he does all the things @Neemie lists, bar housework, which neither of us do. If it isn’t done by the cleaner, it’s not done, other than cursory wipedowns. I don’t think that makes him at all ‘50s housewife’, I think that makes him someone who takes parenting and being a member of a family seriously, otherwise I wouldn’t be married to him or have a child either him.

Maybe they are flawed, but the fundamental question is why bother marrying/cohabiting with someone if they don't bring at least some good qualities to the table?

There's no value legally hitching yourself to someone if they don't improve your life... you're better off going it alone.

It's learning where the line is between "imperfect but brings enough to the table to improve life" and "useless and an overall burden on your life" is. A huge amount of women assume that any man by default is better than no man.

I completely agree.

My personal experience is this.

I was brought up in a very sexist/misogynistic household. My mother firmly believed that women 'get themselves' raped; 'get themselves' pregnant and were wholly responsible for the breakdown of all relationships. I was brought up to be 'someone's wife' and wasn't allowed to do things that might make me unattractive to a a man - eg certain hobbies, going studying A levels/going to university and, when my dad had an affair, she shouted at me in the garden (so the neighbours would know it wasn't her fault) that I was the whore who drove my father into the arms of another woman.

She didn't think I was pretty enough to be loved so tried to diminish my personality in every way so that I'd be as small and inoffensive as possible in the hope that a man might at least 'settle for' me.

I was surrounded by that narrative until I left home at 18 to go to university... (she eventually decided I could go because someone told her I might meet my future husband there).

She took on the full burden of housework because she believed it was her duty. My dad did do stuff around the house but he wasn't allowed to wash up when we had guests because she didn't want people to think that he did anything.

She firmly believed men couldn't use washing machines or couldn't be trusted to do domestic chores so she would mock my dad whenever he tried. She also engaged with 'Men! They're useless!' narratives with her friends. When it was blatantly obvious they weren't and were just as capable as women of doing laundry, cooking and cleaning but the women wouldn't let them.

I declared at 15 that I wasn't ever getting married because I wasn't going to live like that. She and her friends laughed at me.

Anyway, I did eventually get married to a man who shared the load 50/50. The only disparity was because I ebf for 18 months. He had a higher paying job than me because we chose different careers but he was the main contact for school due to more flexibility in his work. His workplace were fine about it.

My partner now does at least 50% (I've also been told on MN that I'm lying, or I'm so blinded by inequality that I only think he does 50%+ when he doesn't).

I see it blamed on men changing, women's upbringing, but woe betide anyone who suggests a woman made a poor choice.

I've dated men who lived alone and so did everything themselves and were more than capable but they showed sexist attitudes in other areas and so I couldn't be sure they wouldn't regard those things as my job eventually. I've also dated men who where it's been obvious that they genuinely believed in sharing the load.

There are plenty of men who will be genuinely equal partners and want to be. There are also plenty of women who disbelieve that and so accept inequality in their relationships and just moan about it.

I've never wanted to be the one who carried the responsibility for domestic work, mental load etc and so I never have been.

I'm not so convinced that this is something men do to women and women play no role in it. DH, and I did shared parental leave, and men kept telling me they'd like to do but their partners wouldn't have it. I thought that was self-serving nonsense: until their partners kept telling me the same thing. Lots and lots of women were horrified that I would 'have to work' while he 'got to stay at home' and thought I was getting a very rough deal. There were also a lot of comments about how I could possibly trust him to do it properly.

Similarly throughout the years where ours were tiny we both worked four days a week, and lots of women told me it was such a shame that I had to work so much - it was clear that they thought him working full-time and me more part-time would have been a much better arrangement. My experience is that most women don't want an equal division of the domestic labour.