To think the time is coming when a universal basic income is seen as a necessity?

“ The idea being of people taking more responsibility for their health and retirement planning whist saving the country billions by not having tens of thousands of people processing claims.”

But I don’t see this happening. Having a UBI system will not miraculously change Wayne and Waynetta from being slobs, eating poorly and smoking into responsible human beings. People already have the opportunity to take care of themselves and there’s enough information out there if they want it, but they don’t.

Silverbirchleaf, by the time UBI is needed we won't be basing our economy on house values. Also by the time it is needed the law will have changed so parents who don't step up or neglect their children will be punished.
OonaStubbs. No everyone would get the same, that's the point. For an example At the minute taxpayers will pay housing benefit of £412 for someone who wants to live in London or £103 a week for someone to live in Barnsley. There is no good reason for taxpayers to fund this choice. If people want to live in a better area they should have to work for it. Also having different housing benefits drives up rents due to landlords knowing they are getting subsidised.
MumoftwoNC Most of the UBI models i've seen are based on the state providing less universal services such as the NHS and Welfare. The idea being of people taking more responsibility for their health and retirement planning whist saving the country billions by not having tens of thousands of people processing claims.

I agree most would work, but I'm not sure if many would still aim for promotions etc if the flat rate of tax was too high.

I'm not sure though. People still go for £100k+ jobs even though they fall off a cliff in terms of nursery subsidies etc. And there'd be no tax/benefits cliff in this model. Maybe it'd work

The flat rate of tax is the right wing part of this model.

It's theoretically possible to have a UBI model that still has tax brackets.

I'd be theoretically more in favour of UBI if it came with a flat rate of tax for everyone because that feels more "fair" (to me, I know that's subjective).

That's not what many on this thread are imagining though because they've mentioned things like wealth tax and "it'll be paid for by taxing the super rich".

However the flat tax rate way of doing it runs the risk that too few people choose to go for high enough earning jobs to pay for all the UBI.

But most people don't

“I don't think it is human nature that most people would just stop working and live the bare minimum life”.

Plenty of people do that already today.

I don't think it is human nature that most people would just stop working and live the bare minimum life. Someone might want to go on holiday so would work to earn it, someone might want a nicer house so would work to earn it, someone might want netflix so would work to earn it. Most people would work, that is before considering that most people enjoy work, whether its the social interaction or the intellectual stimulation.

That would be it. Everyone gets the same and then everyone pays a flat rate of tax on all earnings. The basic income less tax is enough to survive, the more you work the more you get. In many ways I think it is more right wing than left.

You can hope and strive for things without work, volunteer, grow food, get outdoors

How much would the UBI be? And would people on benefits get even more or would that be it?

I also think that there’s no such thing as ‘a (standard) bare minimum’ . For example, £200000 will buy you a two bedroom house in some places, but only a small flat in other areas. My dc, who lives in Scotland, came home for the weekend, and commented how much petrol was down south. If someone spends all their money on alcohol
and cigarettes, and not on their kids, then the kids could still go hungry. It doesn’t solve the problems that exist today.

Was about to post the same.

UBI is a 'thing' on the Right too though, as a way of simplifying the benefits system as said above. Everyone has the basic housing, utilities and food. So no need for anything else unless you work.

Because everyone would have the bare minimum to live on, I think people who are paying for the bare minimum for everyone to live on will be more likely to think' well if they want more than the bare minimum they can do what I do and work. There would be an expectation to work if you want more than that. So I suppose no, there would be no difference to now, it would just cost a shitload more money and leave little for other things.

It doesn't do that though does it? People would still be able to work and earn more money. Personally I think it would be more like a major simplification of the benefits system. Give every one enough to eat and live then beyond that let people work for what they want.

It will be the downfall of humanity. What will be the point in even living with nothing to hope for, nothing to strive for?

I think it will depend on which party is in power. Reform would probably be against it, for obvious reasons, they would see it as giving free money to undeserving people, more left or central governments might be willing to try it.
I believe it will happen at some point.

Buts that's no different to today when those some of those who work resent those who live on benefits not contributing. I can't really see how it would be different in practice to what we have today.

People keep thinking the UBI would be set at a level where lots of people wouldn't bother working but seem to miss the point about it being basic income. For example if it was brought in tomorrow in the UK it would be set at around £1000 a month per person but from at the same time ALL housing benefits, disability benefits, NHS access, Universal credit, pensions, SSP, maternity pay, and free nursery hours ect would end. Now a person CAN live on £1000 a month in many parts the UK and if they choose not to work they will survive. The majority of people want more than that and so will continue to work knowing that they've earnt their better standard of living and the benefits that brings and as they are getting the same as everyone else won't resent those that merely choose to exist.

I suspect the ' envy' would be the other way, as the work will still need to be taxed and things the rich are selling will still cost more. So people working in stressed or v difficult jobs or just jobs will be resentful of their taxes going on people not contributing. It's this divide and rule or just human nature? No animal on earth including us puts other people's children over their own.

We can't afford the likes of Boris Johnson, Farage, Musk and Besos.

Let's start by getting rid of their ability to hoard wealth, redistribute it and see how we go.

I live in a community where there's a lot of generational unemployment. Neighbours fighting over ridiculous nonsense, substance misuse & addiction, & young people getting drawn into crime either locally or in the nearest city are all big issues, & result mainly from boredom & hopelessness about a lack of legitimate possibilities. Sports clubs, community gardens, churches or religious centres, social centres, volunteering & opportunities to engage with the arts can all be helpful for different people.

What happens when we can't afford it anymore and there's people who have no cultural memory of having worked, of ever having known anyone who has worked?

Yes I agree, broadly. The point I was making is once you scale up this sort of thing people will inevitably become envious of others. It's classic divide and Ryle.

I don't think there is an answer until the technological juggernaut stops rolling. And that won't happen. It's benefitted us in so many ways. We've embraced it because in many ways it's given us that free time those who spoke of this in different times wanted.

It doesn't take a whole day to do the family wash. Our food is in the supermarket, not on the fields. I'm not black leading the grate, or boiling pots of water for a bath. Those nice people at the supermarket even peel veg for me if I want.

Recently, more people are having to work more hours, but there was actually a sweet spot when we had a lot more recreation than previous generations because the work to keep a home has been eased by technology. You don't even have to boil a kettle now if you can afford a quooker.

And what did we do with the time? pursue our artistic and creative dreams or watch another episode of the latest Netflix hit?