Could have versus could of

I understand that: I was using that phrase in direct response to a poster who had used it.

I'm just questioning the motives of people who start grammar threads on Mumsnet.

It strikes me as being a classic example of people preaching to the choir and talking to themselves, but pretending to be doing it in the interests of "teaching" others.

@UnctuousUnicorns , it's an unspoken rule on MN that if you start a thread about someone well-known, you must misspell their name.

I always presumed he was named after Keir Hardie, but I might be wrong on that.
Haven't rtft, but I'd have thought the easiest way for those who are unsure to remember would be to remove the "would", "should" or "could" and see whether "have" or "of" still makes sense.

E,g. "I would have bought the dress" with the word "would " removed becomes
either

"I have bought the dress"

or

"I of bought the dress".

It's straightforward enough when put like that, I'd have thought. 🤷‍♀️

One that really gets to me is ‘worse’ when they very clearly mean ‘worst’.

Not to mention lately the number of people who write Kier Starmer!

FFS it’s KEIR!

@Thepeopleversuswork , grammar and spelling isn't about using 'big words'.
You can get your point across by writing simply and clearly.

@Thepeopleversuswork

You may be right in some cases but I honestly would never think I’m better than someone on the basis of their use of English. I do care about it for myself, though, and I appreciate well-written English. Actually, I think I mind more that most people don’t care about good writing in general than that they make SPAG errors themselves! (I haven’t put that very well though.)

@CoffeeCantata

Thepeople: I think that’s a very reductive view of this thread. Some of us are interested in language use and evolution and are commenting on trends and usages. I would not condone attempts to make people feel inferior because of their SPAG.

I am also fascinated by the evolution of language and find poor grammar reflexively frustrating.

But I stand by the fact that in most cases people aren’t posting about this out of genuine concern for the quality of language, they are doing it to make themselves feel superior.

Emerald - I’m sorry you had a bad experience on MN. I don’t agree with criticism of pp’s SPAG and have never commented on it.

Thepeople: I think that’s a very reductive view of this thread. Some of us are interested in language use and evolution and are commenting on trends and usages. I would not condone attempts to make people feel inferior because of their SPAG.

What I’m focusing on are the societal changes which affect literacy. As a former teacher and lecturer I see a change, and have been tracking it for a few decades now. I see it in my own highly-educated children. Reading anything of length or for pleasure is becoming a minority activity. And this trend, plus the reduction in exposure to print media - even The Sun - is affecting literacy standards.

It may not matter - I don’t know. It matters to me, though, and that’s why I comment; not to put people down but because I’m saddened that a source of huge enjoyment in life, which used to be available to pretty much everyone, is disappearing.

But I know I’m a 20th century person!

@EmeraldShamrock000

Making people think they're stupid or lazy, never helped anyone.

So true. And these threads aren't about "helping" anyone, they're about giving the posters a little micro-boost of superiority.

At times I'd love to have the big words to get my point across clearly.

You don't need big words to get a point across. You have made your point perfectly well without them! Big words are very often misused.

💯 this.
@Thepeopleversuswork It is lovely to see a highly educated person on here, who has an appreciation and understanding of all walks from life.
A lot of people have not grown up in an environment where words are cherished and important. They weren't encouraged to read at home, didn't get taught well at school, didn't go to university. It's never been part of their life. It doesn't automatically make them stupid and baiting them with low level snark about sentence structure won't encourage them to love reading or writing, it will just make them feel patronised and feel less likely to learn good grammar.
This.
Making people think they're stupid or lazy, never helped anyone.
At times I'd love to have the big words to get my point across clearly.
Before anyone suggests that I should learn.
I have learnt a lot on here since I left school.
I didn't learn anything from school.
The early days on here were brutal. 😅

So what I was thinking! 😂

I don’t think I’m disagreeing with you @PendantScorner- apologies if it came across that way.

@Waitingfordoggo did you read the whole post? I'm saying that the badly worded post will be harder for someone with dyslexia or other learning difficulties to read. I'm not saying it is them who are making the mistakes.

Oh God, it’s so depressing - and comments like that become self-fulfilling prophecies.

@MotherofPufflings

I do get it! And I know a few scientists who must surely wince at people like me who are so mathematically ignorant. We all care passionately about some things and are content to remain pig-ignorant about others. It’s just that high-level mathematical skill isn’t normally on show in most people’s daily lives in the way their competence at literacy is.

Well yes- exactly. I’m saying it’s completely understandable when someone with dyslexia or other learning difficulties makes this error- partly because spelling is difficult anyway for them, and partly because they are less likely to do much reading because reading is more difficult for them.

Like it or not, we are all constantly making judgements about other people. Face to face this might include accent, dress, hygiene etc. In written communication SPAG will inevitably guide how we perceive the writer. I agree that it's rude to correct someone in a thread but it's impossible for it not to affect how the poster comes across.

some people lack the literacy skills for the job they’re doing.

I'm going to take a wild guess that you're a teacher, lots of whom, in my experience, cling to the belief that good SPAG is essential to do well in life. Out in the big wide world, there are lots of people who wouldn't know (or care) that it's "could have" not "of" who hold down demanding, responsible jobs and are perfectly able to communicate what they mean.

My husband's SPAG isn't the best and he says and writes "could of" and other appallingly ungrammatical things. However, he's incredibly intelligent, is educated to post-graduate level and has had a high-flying professional career. He reads widely (fiction and non-fiction) and has fantastic general knowledge. He was the first person in his family to stay at school after the age of 15 and I imagine he's never absorbed the correct versions of the grammar he grew up hearing. It hasn't held him back though.

I'm a bit of a pedant myself, but I don't try and kid myself that it in any way reflects a superior level of intelligence.

@CoffeeCantata

I do think that language is being impoverished in a number of ways due to educational, broadcasting and social changes. To most people language is just a bad I tool with no aesthetic value and maybe it’s always been like that for the majority. Few people (especially young people) read for pleasure and it strikes me as sad because reading is a free or very inexpensive way to access to whole imaginative worlds.

I completely agree with this. As someone who works with language (and loves it) I find it very depressing that good writing has been downgraded in status and social media and AI are hugely accelerating this.

But I do think that the slightly supercilious "bad grammar fishing" threads by people who have usually had the benefit of a very good education are a bit smug and ultimately pretty pointless.

A lot of people have not grown up in an environment where words are cherished and important. They weren't encouraged to read at home, didn't get taught well at school, didn't go to university. It's never been part of their life. It doesn't automatically make them stupid and baiting them with low level snark about sentence structure won't encourage them to love reading or writing, it will just make them feel patronised and feel less likely to learn good grammar.

There is a new library being built in a small town near me and people on the Council Facebook are complaining at the waste of money 'because nobody reads books any more'. 😩

…just a basic tool…not a bad I tool, whatever that might be. Bloody autocorrect.

And general literacy within the UK population is a relatively recent thing. 200 years ago many working people would not have been literate so wouldn’t have had a concept of anything but their own spoken vernacular, and local dialects would have been much more varied than they are today.

But we’re living in the 21st century and people have fought hard for universal free education. I’d say that, until 20 years ago, a huge value was placed on education and literacy in particular, both as an individual right and as a means to achieving social mobility. I think the internet has vastly changed that idea but not always for the better.

I do think that language is being impoverished in a number of ways due to educational, broadcasting and social changes. To most people language is just a bad I tool with no aesthetic value and maybe it’s always been like that for the majority. Few people (especially young people) read for pleasure and it strikes me as sad because reading is a free or very inexpensive way to access to whole imaginative worlds.

It’s OK - I know I’m a dinosaur!

@Thepeopleversuswork , it's not superior then is it.

I agree with you @CaptainMyCaptain .
If I am corrected then. if they have a point, I accept that I made a mistake and learn from it.
I do occasionally correct posters, but it will be because their post is incomprehensible or they've annoyed me.

I don't think fashion choices are the same as English Grammar. There is no right or wrong in what you wear although someone wishing to change their style might well be influenced. I have learnt interesting facts while on Mumsnet.

@CaptainMyCaptain

On the other hand if someone corrects them on an anonymous forum it could actually help them. It isn't about feeling smug.

I don't think life works like that.

If I clicked onto a thread with a bunch of women looking down their nose at women who wear high street fashion as opposed to designer I wouldn't think "This is useful information, what can I learn from these people about good style?"

I'd think "What a load of small-minded, judgmental nonsense... life's too short," and log off.