AIBU to think this disciplinary is unfair?

Sorry but this does annoy me. Some people pay their union dues for years but others try to claim the benefits without ever being a member (I know the op hasn't suggested this.). Bit like taking out car insurance after the car crash.

ACAS is a good idea.

They're trying to manage you out, for whatever reason. If you're in a union then get them onto it right away. If you aren't then find a good employment lawyer and make sure your employer knows you're taking legal advice.

Yes, it's very frightening when you are on your own dealing with what seems like a very unfair process but you can get advice from ACAS on your rights and fair procedures which will inform how you can deal with and / or challenge this. You can also read up on the ACAS website about the grievance and disciplinary requirements on employers and what you are entitled to in such procedures. This will strengthen your arm and give you confidence in how to proceed. Also read your staff manual and procedures, which must comply with the ACAS codes of practice. Maybe you will decide to launch an official grievance to protect your position.

But beyond the immediate problem, what do you think is going on generally in the company and do you think there is more behind this development, than the issue of lateness? Are there changes at the top? Is there new management? Does your manager seem a good sort and do you get on? Is the company profitable? Are they trying to cut staff but looking for an excuse to get rid of certain people at a certain grade or length of service or trying to avoid redundancy requirements and payments?

It's very difficult going through this and it would be wise to keep looking for a new job and keep your hopes up for that and do not despair. You will get something else. And meanwhile even in your present job, there is help and you do have protections, though you shouldn't have to go through all this ordeal of being ignored and threatened with disciplinary if it's not well based.

You seem confused about what the performance management process is, and where in the process you currently are.

Good practice would be to have informal discussions to see if things improve, then a formal (minuted) meeting which lays out the issues, the actions you need to take to improve, by when, and how this will be evaluated.

Only after that has not worked would a decent organisation trigger a formal disciplinary hearing. If that's done properly, then you should have the accusation(s) clearly stated beforehand, and you should be told what the potential consequences are. The last bit is important because it helps define your rights under the concept of natural justice: for example if you could be dismissed then you should be allowed a friend to help you defend yourself, introduce evidence that your defence relies upon, be given the opportunity to examine witnesses, and the chance to rebut evidence. To do that you'd need disclosure - to be given the evidence against you in advance. If the most that could happen is you get a file note for 12 months then you're unlikely to be allowed to bring a barrister in.

It sounds like you're not there, yet. If you've been denied the opportunity to present evidence in the early informal stage of a process to manage poor performance then that's really quite crap from them, but ultimately you have not yet been subjected to an unfair hearing which could result in your dismissal because you yourself have said that they are talking about the formal disciplinary hearing as something that might happen in the future.

All that having been said, I agree with a PP. If there have been a lot of disciplinary proceedings recently and nothing else has changed in terms of management attitudes etc then it does look and smell like they are trying redundancies on the cheap. And if you've been there 12 years you are going to be expensive to make redundant.

If she’s not already in a union there’s little point joining now for support with this issue because a union won’t advise on something that pre-dates membership. It’s like buying car insurance after you’ve crashed your car.

Not looking at evidence provided seems to me (a lay person is such matters) as not following a reasonable process.

People have been successful at employment tribunals because of failures of process, even though they have been 100% guilty of what they were dismissed for.

Hope you can find another job soon and saddened to read of the treatment you are receiving.

I agree with everyone who says contact ACAS in the first instance. Also make sure you have a record of everything that said between you and them; if it's on the phone or in person, write a note immediately afterwards and date it.

In the longer term/bigger picture, I don't agree with those who say you should just accept that the relationship has gone bad and leave. If they continue to behave as they are, lawyer up. You may well be able to leave with a good settlement, rather than just having to resign.

Read your company’s disciplinary policy (often linked with grievance) which should be available on your intranet.

Then contact ACAS. It doesn’t sound as though they have followed the standard process of a potential disciplinary. However, at the moment it is only potential.

If they decide to discipline they must follow the process as set out in the policy.

Please contact ACAS and go through all the details with them. They are very helpful and are also impartial, favouring best practice as opposed to employer or employee.

Wishing you the best of luck with this.

Hello OP

do not accept the disciplinary, refuse to sign any paperwork, and contact your household insurance as you are covered for legal advice and set up a meeting to discuss your situation.

do not attend any meeting without a witness going forward and ask to record the meeting, so that there is a permanent record of them not looking at evidence or following procedure.

Stand firm, you have evidence and you are in the right.

There's always a union, because there are general unions. The TUC website has a union finder which you enter your sector into, and it will tell you which unions would represent you.

However, mine likes you to have been a member for at least 3 months before taking on a case.

They were excellent went I went through a disciplinary that I was innocent of, and also a few years later when I was made redundant. My union wasn't recognised by my workplace, so my rep was external to the company and it's what he did full time - union experiences fo seem to vary according to the abilities and willingness of your rep.

Definitely go down the union/ACAS route, but I think it's also time to make sure your CV is up-to-date and check the jobs market.

What is your Managers stance in these meetings?

From your posts it sounds like she's been aware of the issue as you've been keeping her in the loop that you were having these issue, she's been referring you to IT, but then is suddenly supporting this action?

Is it that she's completely IT illiterate and thinks you're talking bollocks? Do you have any insight on that?

If this was one of my team unless I thought they were making excuses and IT had said there was no issue which I had sight of, then I'd be supporting you as I was aware of issues with logging in.

I can't tell if they are IT illiterate, or trying to get rid of you? (Provided you're telling the truth which is more than plausible imo.)

I understood it as OP has laptop on say 08.26, tries to login to company networks but there’s a problem with that process and OP doesn’t finally come online and be observed as ‘green status’ until 08.45

OP mentions that others have been subject to sudden disciplineries. Sounds like the company is looking to shed staff but unfairly/illegally swerve the redundancy process.

I went away, videoed the IT problems which transpire that is causing the log in time to be later than I actually am logging in
I don't understand that. Surely if the clock is wrong, it will also show you logging off at a later time too? And why is it some days and not others? Are you working from home? Did IT go back and explain why the logging time is wrong?

Really sorry to hear this. I had a similar issue with a young new manager who’d recently started a management training course. The issues raised could easily have been dealt with in normal day to day working, eg one issue had simply slipped off my radar at a very busy time and a timely reminder sound have sufficed. They did the same with another older colleague, but not the younger one

Do you have a copy of your company’s disciplinary procedures so you can understand where things are? If it’s simply an IT issue, keep logging them and keep on with the broken record of stating this.

Your witness/companion does not have to be a colleague you can ask for someone else to attend. Also the companion can speak. They can’t answer questions but they can ask for a break if you need of in my case made sure I didn’t say anything I shouldn’t. If you have any friends in hr (not same company) have a chat with them. I wish you well. It’s horrible I am out the other side. I had excellent support I was very lucky.

Yes it is unfair.
But your choices are:
to keep fighting them, using up your emotional and mental energy, when they are obviously shit employers and may be trying to force you out,
or, to look for another job and leave ASAP.

Do you have the stomach to fight them all the way to a tribunal?

The relationship is dead. Your time at this company is over.
Just go through the motions of this corrupt process whilst job hunting.

Absolutely - always join a union if there is one ✊ If there isn't one, start one.
Good luck OP. YANBU

Call ACAS and seek help from them

Unions won't usually support with something that occurred before you became a member

Read your organisations policy for disciplinary matters

This may help too

https://www.acas.org.uk/discipline-and-grievance

The way I usually deal with things like this is to either printout and write on or edit the digital version to add what I want recorded. If I edit the digital version I clearly use a different colour font and note my points concisely.

Such as:
On review of the examples provided above, the late start times are due to:

1. 3 Jan - IT issues - IT ticket number / incident number. Refer Attachment 1. Delay in logging in due to xxxxxxxxx
2. 15 Jan - repeat structure above.

Then I sign after my additions. If they want a signed document, they'll get the document with all relevant information, not the version that suits them.

If you are in a union you need to enlist their help. Having said that, I paid my union dues for forty years " because they'd support me if I needed them" then when it was redundancy time they were absolutely. fucking. useless. Literally no value. Company wanted me out, I was out, blatantly unfair dismissal. Bitter? Me?

Sorry... Derail. Sounds like you have a case OP, fight as hard as you can.

I'd send them a very official looking letter, watermarked and lay out that you have not been given a chance to defend yourself, evidence has been disregarded and the names of those who have refused to view it, that they are not following policy and that you require all further meetings be held with a union representative present.

I'd also file a grievance against the offending managers but I'm a petty cunt.

Unions require about a month's membership before they take on a case, so essentially they don't take on existing cases. However, a local rep / regional officer might be lenient and allow it onto the case files.

Please speak to ACAS which is free employment advice.

Please also join a union.

It sounds like they are bypassing the redundancy route by taking spurious disciplinary action which is technically unfair dismissal if they label it as gross misconduct and sack you.

They are acting against employment law. ACAS would offer great advice at this stage.

Even if the employer does not have a recocognised union agreement, you are still allowed representation and by law they must allow it.

I think you can ask for a witness if it is an actual disciplinary meeting, but they should give you notice of the meeting to arrange this.

I recorded a disciplinary meeting, I told them I would and provide a written copy (this was many years ago). So if they are going to do this, tell them you want a witness and the record the meeting.

If they are trying to force you out, it may help them make a judgement on whether to just pay you off.