Page 4 | To think the school could have cut DS some slack here

Sprogonthetyne · 2025-09-02T16:33:36+00:00

DS is autistic, really struggles with school in general but especially when there's transitions and change, so the start of term is hard for him. He's been crying and having anxiety attacks about going back to school for the last week and is only a hairs breath away from school refusal. He went back today and had a really good morning, which took an enormous amount of effort from him. This afternoon he got told off for using his glue stick wrongly. Not inappropriately, just spreading glue across the whole surface he was sticking (as preferd by last year's teacher) instead of a dot in each corner (preferd by this years teacher), and this completely unravelled him. He'd been trying so hard to manage the big changes and hold everything together, so the unfairness of still being in trouble despite his effort and for something minor that he didn't even know had changed pushed him over the edge and he ended up having a meltdown (which I know isn't ideal, I'm not defending his reaction). While I know I aught to suport the school, I can't help but feel they could really have picked their battles and just left the kid to glue however he wants.

PumpkinSpicePie · 03/09/2025 15:56

Sprogonthetyne · 03/09/2025 15:46

He would be able to process the change if he was told about it when regulated, he couldn't at that time because he was already in panic mode from the unexpected telling off.

If the process at work changed, you would be told that, and if you forgot and did it the old way, there would probably be a civil conversation about it. In non of the situations you list is someone shouting at you likely to be the first time you are told of a change.

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I doubt very much the TA told you that she shouted at your ds

Mrsttcno1 · 03/09/2025 15:52

Sprogonthetyne · 03/09/2025 15:46

He would be able to process the change if he was told about it when regulated, he couldn't at that time because he was already in panic mode from the unexpected telling off.

If the process at work changed, you would be told that, and if you forgot and did it the old way, there would probably be a civil conversation about it. In non of the situations you list is someone shouting at you likely to be the first time you are told of a change.

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From what you have been told though she hasn’t actually shouted at him, or told him off, she has just corrected him which he has perceived as a telling off and that can and will continue to happen throughout his life.

PamIsAVolleyballChamp · 03/09/2025 15:50

Sprogonthetyne · 03/09/2025 15:46

He would be able to process the change if he was told about it when regulated, he couldn't at that time because he was already in panic mode from the unexpected telling off.

If the process at work changed, you would be told that, and if you forgot and did it the old way, there would probably be a civil conversation about it. In non of the situations you list is someone shouting at you likely to be the first time you are told of a change.

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But was he SHOUTED at?

Original poster

Sprogonthetyne · 03/09/2025 15:49

PumpkinSpicePie · 03/09/2025 15:27

It's fine for the teacher to tell the other children in the class to only glue the corners. You can't overule her about what she wants the rest of the class to do.

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Of course no, but I can make sufficient resources available that they don't feel as much pressure to prioritise reserving glue over all else.

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Original poster

Sprogonthetyne · 03/09/2025 15:46

Mrsttcno1 · 03/09/2025 15:14

I think you’re focusing a bit too much on the glue though, and not seeing this poster’s point that it may have been glue this time but this situation can and will happen lots of time throughout his school, career & general life.

It could be using a particular pen next time, it could be teachers asking the kids to underline the date and then changing their mind and saying not to, it could be rubbers, or using pencil vs not using pencil. In his working life it could be changing an email signature, doing a piece of work the same way for a year and then it being changed completely and the previous way becomes wrong etc etc etc. What you have said is that it isn’t the glue, it’s your child’s frustration at being told something is right, doing it that way, and then subsequently being told it’s wrong and the new way is right, and him being unable to cope with that because if the new way is right then that means the previous way is wrong— that is something he is going to have to deal with his whole life, things change, different teachers will have different rules, the same teachers can change rules, different managers in the workplace change the rules and sometimes everything changes there too.

Buying 24 glue sticks doesn’t really help.

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He would be able to process the change if he was told about it when regulated, he couldn't at that time because he was already in panic mode from the unexpected telling off.

If the process at work changed, you would be told that, and if you forgot and did it the old way, there would probably be a civil conversation about it. In non of the situations you list is someone shouting at you likely to be the first time you are told of a change.

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PumpkinSpicePie · 03/09/2025 15:27

Sprogonthetyne · 03/09/2025 11:55

That's part of why I've sent a large box of glue sticks directly to the teacher as classroomsupplies. I don't think any child should be getting told off for using up stationary while doing their work.

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It's fine for the teacher to tell the other children in the class to only glue the corners. You can't overule her about what she wants the rest of the class to do.

Kreepture · 03/09/2025 15:26

Paganpentacle · 03/09/2025 15:20

Aaah.
Its perceived as a criticism in your eyes.... so, and I say this as someone with ADHD and ASD... is everything going to be perceived as a criticism?

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probably, until his frontal lobe has matured enough to recognise the difference.

DS19 took until he was about 14 to learn that.

The OP's DS is 8, operating as a 6yo. Why do you expect him to be able to tell the difference?

Paganpentacle · 03/09/2025 15:20

Sprogonthetyne · 02/09/2025 19:34

No I expect his 1:1, who has worked with him for 3 years to understand that a sudden change of rules would be difficult and that criticising a child for doing somthing in the way they've done it for years without issues will feel unfair to them.

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Aaah.
Its perceived as a criticism in your eyes.... so, and I say this as someone with ADHD and ASD... is everything going to be perceived as a criticism?

napody · 03/09/2025 15:20

Sprogonthetyne · 03/09/2025 14:47

Even if he wasn't told off this time and it was just an abrupt voice that sounded like telling off to him, the point is he can't tell the difference. If I tell him that when people sound angry they might not really be and it's fine to just smile and say OK, he's going to apply that across the bord, including time when he actually is been told off. The level of tone recognition he's working with is either 'friendly' or 'angry', he doesn't have the capacity to recognise in-between things like 'slightly frustrated'.

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But if he's capable of smiling and saying OK, that means the meltdown wasn't inevitable. There's an extra stage between him being given an instruction that he didn't expect (which IS pretty inevitable) and the meltdown.

You can teach him to look serious and say OK if you like- you have taken that advice very literally. That the person isn't angry, they are there to help him and they're doing their job.

I agree he shouldn't miss his break the next day for a meltdown. That's an inappropriate sanction given his neurodivergence. But the answer to that isn't attempting to create a world where he is never 'triggered'. You can address it on two fronts- educating him on how to react as above, and speaking to the school re the punishment... but NOT making it all about his 1:1 giving him a perfectly reasonable instruction about glue. Good luck- I get why you are feeling like this! It's just important to focus on the areas that you can potentially change.

Mrsttcno1 · 03/09/2025 15:14

Sprogonthetyne · 03/09/2025 14:26

But primarily school is the only time when he is like to be randomly told off for using to much glue. Once he's older and allowed his own stationery, he can take as much glue as he wants. Once he's an adult, people tend to stop shouting anyway, if he was using to much office supplies at work there'd be a civil conversion and if he wanted to bring in his own supplies, no one would bat an eyelid

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I think you’re focusing a bit too much on the glue though, and not seeing this poster’s point that it may have been glue this time but this situation can and will happen lots of time throughout his school, career & general life.

It could be using a particular pen next time, it could be teachers asking the kids to underline the date and then changing their mind and saying not to, it could be rubbers, or using pencil vs not using pencil. In his working life it could be changing an email signature, doing a piece of work the same way for a year and then it being changed completely and the previous way becomes wrong etc etc etc. What you have said is that it isn’t the glue, it’s your child’s frustration at being told something is right, doing it that way, and then subsequently being told it’s wrong and the new way is right, and him being unable to cope with that because if the new way is right then that means the previous way is wrong— that is something he is going to have to deal with his whole life, things change, different teachers will have different rules, the same teachers can change rules, different managers in the workplace change the rules and sometimes everything changes there too.

Buying 24 glue sticks doesn’t really help.

Ddakji · 03/09/2025 15:13

Sprogonthetyne · 03/09/2025 15:02

He will miss his playtime today for event that happened yesterday he had no control over at the time and probably doesn't clearly remember because his brain was too overloaded to process what was happening or form memory's at the time.

The missed playtime will bother him but what will bother him more is that for the second day in a row (100% of the term so far) he will be in trouble with no idea what he has done or or how he could have avoided it. For him, this will reinforced the belief he already hold that all the staff hate him and no matter what he does or how hard he tries he will still end up in trouble.

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Poor wee soul. He’s lucky to have such a great advocate as you as his mum.

Have you managed to speak to the school or make an appointment?

Original poster

Sprogonthetyne · 03/09/2025 15:02

Corfumanchu · 03/09/2025 14:54

I can't even see that he has been punished? He has sat out (usually only afew minutes) to regulate himself

He will miss his playtime today for event that happened yesterday he had no control over at the time and probably doesn't clearly remember because his brain was too overloaded to process what was happening or form memory's at the time.

The missed playtime will bother him but what will bother him more is that for the second day in a row (100% of the term so far) he will be in trouble with no idea what he has done or or how he could have avoided it. For him, this will reinforced the belief he already hold that all the staff hate him and no matter what he does or how hard he tries he will still end up in trouble.

OP posts:

Corfumanchu · 03/09/2025 14:54

I can't even see that he has been punished? He has sat out (usually only afew minutes) to regulate himself

Original poster

Sprogonthetyne · 03/09/2025 14:47

KilkennyCats · 03/09/2025 14:37

He wasn’t told off. You’ve literally said he can’t cope with being told off / perceiving he’s being told off.

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Even if he wasn't told off this time and it was just an abrupt voice that sounded like telling off to him, the point is he can't tell the difference. If I tell him that when people sound angry they might not really be and it's fine to just smile and say OK, he's going to apply that across the bord, including time when he actually is been told off. The level of tone recognition he's working with is either 'friendly' or 'angry', he doesn't have the capacity to recognise in-between things like 'slightly frustrated'.

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KilkennyCats · 03/09/2025 14:37

Sprogonthetyne · 03/09/2025 13:29

If he smiles and cheerily say okay every time he is told off his is going to be perceived as been flippant and end up in even more trouble

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He wasn’t told off. You’ve literally said he can’t cope with being told off / perceiving he’s being told off.

lanthanum · 03/09/2025 14:36

The 1-1 made a misjudgement here - she perhaps didn't realise how much of a struggle the day had been as it had been going so well, or the break meant she wasn't as alert to his state as she might have been. It's going to happen occasionally. She may be kicking herself for saying anything, and having the year get off to a bad start. Did she know how much he'd struggled just to get there that morning?

It's not clear who is implementing the punishment - is that the class teacher, or the 1-1? There's often a feeling at the beginning of the year that it's important to set standards from the outset, and apply consequences immediately so that everyone can see what is expected - especially if the teacher is new, this may be why they wanted the punishment applied. It would be sensible for this case to be an exception, and maybe that will have happened in the end. Let's hope.

It's not about the glue. Your child thought it was a bigger issue than it really was (doing the gluing all wrong versus "try and use a bit less glue by doing it this way"), and that's why he overreacted (by NT standards). By going and buying glue, you may be reinforcing the idea that the punishment is for gluing wrongly.

Original poster

Sprogonthetyne · 03/09/2025 14:26

Corfumanchu · 03/09/2025 14:15

Thr staff are not at fault here. Autistic or not, your child is going to eventually hsvr yo live s life outside primary school which isn't all people walking on egg shells and pacification. He needs to be able to find a way of channelling his meltdowns.

But primarily school is the only time when he is like to be randomly told off for using to much glue. Once he's older and allowed his own stationery, he can take as much glue as he wants. Once he's an adult, people tend to stop shouting anyway, if he was using to much office supplies at work there'd be a civil conversion and if he wanted to bring in his own supplies, no one would bat an eyelid

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Corfumanchu · 03/09/2025 14:15

Thr staff are not at fault here. Autistic or not, your child is going to eventually hsvr yo live s life outside primary school which isn't all people walking on egg shells and pacification. He needs to be able to find a way of channelling his meltdowns.

Original poster

Sprogonthetyne · 03/09/2025 14:01

Sprogonthetyne · 03/09/2025 13:29

If he smiles and cheerily say okay every time he is told off his is going to be perceived as been flippant and end up in even more trouble

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I'm not having a go, there are definitely situations where that is the appropriate response, but that requires the child to be able to read the situation enough to know if the response is appropriate. My kid is behind the curve in been able to read situations, he is learning and will definitely improve, but often needs help (eg. Been mindful of tone or even say "I am/ I'm not angry")

He can definitely tell the difference between 'neutral/gentle' and 'angry', but can't necessarily see the nuance between "I'm stressed and a bit abrupt, but what your doing isn't that much of a big deal' and 'I'm furious with you', that's why managing the tone used with him is so important to help him understand what is been communicated.

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Kreepture · 03/09/2025 13:39

the only 'reflection' that should be going on around a meltdown should be on the Staffs part to work out why it happened, and what they can do to prevent it happening again.

anyone who has worked with your son for 3 years should know him well enough to know when he is at risk of meltdown, and be actively working to avoid triggering one, and trying to help him de-escalate and regulate.

If that had been my son, i would be objecting to the punishment and seeking a meeting with the staff to address THEIR failure.

(my ds is 19 and audhd, and went to mainstream primary school, i had plenty of incidents like this until he was given an AMAZING competent 1:1 in yr 5. he attended a specialist secondary)

Kreepture · 03/09/2025 13:35

OP.

With regard to objecting to any discipline or punishment meted out by the school in response to meltdowns...

The school have to prove that punishment/disciplinary procedures 'achieve legitimate aim' - in other words, they have to have a quantifiable reason for doing it, where the child will learn a lesson about their behaviour.

In terms of Meltdown, your son isn't in control of those, they're not optional, they're not bad behaviour, so punishing a meltdown is pointless, and does not meet the requirements of 'legitimate aim' because they aren't going to teach your child not to have a meltdown.

You're within your legal rights to object/protest ANY punishment given for Meltdowns under those circumstances.

Original poster

Sprogonthetyne · 03/09/2025 13:29

napody · 03/09/2025 12:27

This. I had to teach both my children this- they are rule followers in school. Being spoken to isn't the end of the world- I literally taught them to look at the person and cheerfully say 'okay' - job done.

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If he smiles and cheerily say okay every time he is told off his is going to be perceived as been flippant and end up in even more trouble

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Original poster

Sprogonthetyne · 03/09/2025 13:24

MagpiePi · 03/09/2025 13:00

..she has also worked with him every day for 3 years, so is very familiar with his needs.

So she always anticipates his mood and stress levels and knows if a particular situation, way of phrasing something or tone of voice will cause a meltdown and so has never got it wrong until before? Does your son ever have meltdowns when he is with you?

I think that the 'period of reflection' thing seems harsh and pointless, but I also think that a lot of blame is being put on the TA for not being a mind reader.

Usually she is able to anticipate if a wording or tone of voice will be triggering and also recognise signs of stress and adapt her approach accordingly. I believe on this occasion she made a mistake, which we all do from time to time.

My issue it that instead of just accepting she mishandled a situation and moving on, she is blaming and punishing a disabled 8yo for the effect that mistake had on him.

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Original poster

Sprogonthetyne · 03/09/2025 13:11

latetothefisting · 03/09/2025 12:19

Can't you just make up a reason
E.g. "when you were younger it was good to glue all over the sheet because smaller children aren't as strong so need to use more glue. Now you're a big boy in year 4 you're stronger and tidier than you were last year and better at sticking so you only need to glue in the corners. Miss x should have explained this to you but sometimes adults forget things are different in different classes. Teachers have a lot to remember at the start of the year too!"

Basically anything to say it was okay for him to do it x way before but is also okay to do it y way now - neither way was wrong just things have changed. Perhaps use an example like "remember mum used to walk you to class in reception but now she waves goodbye at the gate" or "you used to play in the little yard now you play in the big yard".

The only thing I would add is that you've said a few times the school should have "known" that he was struggling more than usual/already down to his last "spoon" because of back to school, and I appreciate that seems obvious to you - but from the schools perspective they could be thinking that lots of days have the potential to be exacerbating factors - e.g. Friday because its end of the week but also Monday because its the start. Christmas because that's exciting for kids. Any particular weather - snow, very heavy rain, storm. Sunshine because he wants to be out in it or is too hot. His teacher being off sick. Arguing with a friend or sibling. His birthday. Then multiply that by 30 for all the different kids in the class.

They could have even thought the opposite -that being off for so long might mean he is relaxed, not tired as he might be at the end of the week/term and therefore in a good position to receive advice.
At some point they have to establish a baseline and treat every day the same.

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My mistake, insted of "should have known" I should have said "did know". Difficulty with transition is clearly documented in his EHCP and struggling at the start of term has been a recurring pattern for the three years they have had him. We talked about it and planned how to manage the transition before the summer, including bringing home a folder of every major change and photos of new areas and people, to look over during the summer. (Not down to new glue use rules, thats why it's the little unexpected changes that floor him not the big one's that have been explained to him). They were definitely 100% awar that it would be a difficult day for him.

Explanations like you suggest would be fine when he's regulated but once he becomes disregulated (in this case by what he perceives to be an unjust telling off), he loses the ability to process any verbal communication. It's not that he doesn't accept the reason, he literally has no idea what your saying.

Reflecting on times when he has been disregulated tends to bring all the emotions back to the surface, as that's all he remembers of the event (he was too overwhelmed to process anything else at the time, so nothing else go put to memory). He has no recollection of who, where or what was said, only that using glue =everyone is angry at me. If I bring it up with him now he will re-live all the emotions of the time and go straight back into panic mode, so still not be able to process any explanation I give.

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Jimmyneutronsforehead · 03/09/2025 13:10

Ablondiebutagoody · 03/09/2025 13:03

It's not my system and it's not ableist to explain why it isn't working. Reasonable adjustments cease to be reasonable when they apply to a third of the class. It becomes unmanageable.

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Inconvenient =/= unreasonable in the eyes of the law.